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MD5 Metamark Metascape advice neeeded please.

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Pane Talev

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Post Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:23 pm

MD5 Metamark Metascape advice neeeded please.

Hi all.

Looks like I've done a rookie mistake.

I made 120 stickers (600x300mm) with MD5 Metamark Metascape + gloss equivalent MD5 laminate.

Went for MD5 Metascape because client applies them-self.

I applied the first sticker yesterday to show client how it is done.

Today he comes to pick up the second order. I personally inspect the sticker. Water / snow / dirt went inside on the top side and looked very bad.

I removed the sticker and applied a new one. I also applied another one on my car to test tonight.

Problems apart from maybe I didn't follow correct application procedures (maybe I should of had the car in my workshop longer):

Was I wrong to use Metascape for 600x300mm print an cut job?

Do you believe that Metascape / air-release vinyl is better for bigger panel covering and shouldn't be used for small print and cut jobs.

How long you keep client car in cold weather day?

Do you think MD5 Metascape will peel off easier than normal MD5?

Many thanks.
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David Hammond

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Post Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:12 pm

Re: MD5 Metamark Metascape advice neeeded please.

We use MD-I AB, but are looking to switch back to MD5A. We printed some graphics and laminated them with matching lam. Part of a fleet job, so had some in the workshop. When fitting I noticed it looked like the vinyl had shrunk 0.5mm but not the laminate, very small amount so applied them.

Customer rang up the following day, the graphics had come off. Only the MDi, not the M7 (Metascape also)

To touch the metascape doesn't feel as sticky as non air release. I think that's the same with all brands.

I know Rob explained it on the course that the air channels reduce the surface area of the adhesive which would make sense.

The cold could have an affect, we usually wash them down outside, leather off and bring them in, bit of panel wipe then crack on. Occasionally have the odd letter that doesn't stick when removing the tape, but nothing major.

It could be a combination of things, we had one van where despite our usual cleaning routine nothing would stick, a bit of IPA, and it stuck like you know what.
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Pane Talev

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Post Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:20 pm

Re: MD5 Metamark Metascape advice neeeded please.

Cheers David,

Metamark promised to send me peel test results of MD5 and MD5 Metascape.

They also told me in cold weather:

Bring client vehicle inside my workshop and leave it over night. (example: Monday)

Apply graphics next day (Tuesday)

Client collects vehicle on the next day. (Wednesday)

Allow the vinyl to bond 24h and preferred warm workshop temperature.

Will be nice to heat from as many people how they do vinyl work in the cold.
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David Hammond

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Post Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:29 pm

Re: MD5 Metamark Metascape advice neeeded please.

3 days to do some van signage? :yikes:

We could probably get away with standard MD5 95% of the time, but stock Metascape as I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

We've tried alternative brands, but seem to always come back to Metamark.
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Chris Wilson

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Post Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:32 pm

Re: MD5 Metamark Metascape advice neeeded please.

We work outside.
Very few problems. We don’t use metamark though. We use Avery. And to be honest of recent not an air release. But no problems from it to my knowledge (touching wood)

This time of year I tend to go over the vehicles with panel wipe and then IPA.
If it’s raining not a hope.
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Pane Talev

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Post Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:50 pm

Re: MD5 Metamark Metascape advice neeeded please.

David Hammond wrote:3 days to do some van signage? :yikes:


That's exactly how I reacted!
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Chris Wool

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Post Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:45 pm

Re: MD5 Metamark Metascape advice neeeded please.

Did you cut through print or a white boarder
If really cold I normally warm it up a bit with a heat gun after fitting to give the adhesive bit of a chance.
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Robert Lambie

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Post Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:38 am

Re: MD5 Metamark Metascape advice neeeded please.

Forget what brand you are using, if the panel you are applying to is cold the adhesion is limited it will NOT build up its bond unless the panel becomes warm and the adhesive softens.

Your metamark rep is most likely giving you a best practice type scenario based on "wrapping", but does not or should not apply to the type of thing you are applying. The key is "heat" when it comes to the adhesive being able to perform properly.

A vinyl graphic that sticks, but the conditions are wrong or the pressure applied is wrong, I personally term it as a "floating" graphic and unless addressed properly prior to the vehicle leaving the workshop, that graphic WILL fail eventually.
This often happens with adhesive systems such as 3M Control-tac that actually levitate the vinyl via microscopic glass beads until the proper amount of squeegee pressure is applied. to look at it looks fine, but the reality is its "floating" and has limited contact with the surface. Another instance with this media is that if the surface is cold, the adhesive remains stiff/hard and is not receptive to the beads until it is heated. as a result, the appearance looks like you have tiny bits of dust below it. my point here is not to knock the film, nor metamarks for that matter!
air-release adhesive systems come in many different forms, from the bead system of 3M to air channels in the adhesive to allow the air to expel from under the vinyl, to low initial tack adhesives and more... these systems are introduced to make the application process easier and faster, which aid in a better overall finish. regardless, these systems all create their own issues!!
If you are using ANY film as your weapon of choice, whether that is based on performance or price of the media, it is up to the individual to follow the proper application process given by the manufacturers. Something I think the vinyl manufacturers should have on an A4 sheet within every full roll of media sold, or simply a large web address printed on the box to go for the latest application methods for the product. From here, it is up to us lot to follow the application process by the book or expect a fail to bite your ar$e at some point!

so back to application issue of this small graphic. how can this be sped up??
the vehicle should be indoors.
clean the area being applied too properly.
now apply any marks you need to position the graphic with.
Heat the area your applying too AND out with it a minimum of 300mm with a heat gun.
if not using a laser thermometer, heat it till the panel is look warm. room temperature is best.
now position your graphic and apply it.
once applied to go back over the graphic with a felt edged squeegee firmly.
now go back over the graphic with the heat gun in a waving motion bringing the graphic and surrounding area till its warm to touch. ideally, heat and apply a bit of pressure with the squeegee around the perimeter.
this whole process only takes ten minutes or so...
now leave the graphic to cool down naturally, or as long as possible before taking it back out into the cold.
if this sounds too long-winded or over-kill, then ignore it. but I can assure you the fails will not stop if applied in cold tempretures!
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Pane Talev

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Post Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:10 am

Re: MD5 Metamark Metascape advice neeeded please.

Robert, thank you for the detailed explanation. Much appreciated. Will follow this procedure from now on.

Yesterday I did apply the same sticker on a piece of acrylic (i had sitting in my workshop temperature) Appliend the sticker and left it for few hours in the workshop, before I left the workshop I placed the sign out overnight in the snow (-5)

This morning I took it out of the snow, placed the acrylic inside the workshop (it was covered with ice) after defrosting, the sticker was spotless.

This thread is not about bashing Metamark. I'm simply looking for advice how to master application in cold temperatures.

Thank you all for your input.
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Martyn Heath

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Post Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:43 am

Re: MD5 Metamark Metascape advice neeeded please.

i use rapidtac here in finland. Still manage to fit in -5c. Just done a shop this morning in -1c with a wind chill of -8c.

Worth a try although its not cheap.
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Iain Pearson

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Post Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:01 pm

Re: MD5 Metamark Metascape advice neeeded please.

Martyn Heath wrote:i use rapidtac here in finland. Still manage to fit in -5c. Just done a shop this morning in -1c with a wind chill of -8c.

Worth a try although its not cheap.


-8 (oh, im a bad boy!) that for a game of marbles
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Robert Lambie

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Post Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:55 pm

Re: MD5 Metamark Metascape advice neeeded please.

Rapid-tac is probably the only application fluid I have ever said may be used if all other dry routes of application are not an option. the reason is rapid-tac 2 has stimulants that activate the adhesive in some way to form a bond. and yes there are some very old videos kicking around the internet that show the owner fitting in the snow and removing the application tape right after.

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