my invisible text
Categories
  • TIMELINE

Grenfell Tower fire, Aluminium Composite Material - Is this a fire hazard?

<<

Phill Fenton

User avatar

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 11084

Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2002 11:04 pm





Post Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:18 am

Grenfell Tower fire, Aluminium Composite Material - Is this a fire hazard?

Early reports suggest that ACM cladding was the cause of the horrendous fire that engulfed a London flat yesterday. Is this the same stuff so beloved of signmakers these days and if so is there likely to be an impact on our industry?
<<

David Hammond

User avatar

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 3414

Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:17 am

Country: United Kingdom (uk)




Post Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:53 am

Re: Aluminium Composite Material - Is this a fire hazard?

I noticed a new tower build near us, is using a composite panel for cladding. Can't remember the brand but it was the brand I recognised whilst driving past.

I'm not sure how combustable the panels alone would be, perhaps it's the insulation behind, or the way they've been installed?
<<

Robert Lambie

User avatar

*****
*****

Posts: 27259

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2001 1:00 am

Country: United Kingdom (uk)




Post Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:54 am

Re: Aluminium Composite Material - Is this a fire hazard?

I would imagine the premium brands have a fire rating Phill, but it does make you wonder about all the cheap chinese imports that are on the go because there are loads more of those than the quality brands.

I haven't heard that, but makes sense because you could see so much... what looked like dripping plastic in flames falling away from the building.
<<

Emyr Evans

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 52

Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:06 pm





Post Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:02 am

Re: Aluminium Composite Material - Is this a fire hazard?

I've had a quick look into what type of ACM was used, and it seems it was different to the stuff that we all use.

The cladding on the building was an Aluminium Composite Material, but the core was made out of a polyurethane foam as opposed to the polyethylene core that we all work with.

Still, I think this might have some impact on the sign industry
<<

Hugh Potter

User avatar

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 8485

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:43 am

Country: United Kingdom (uk)




Post Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:44 am

Re: Aluminium Composite Material - Is this a fire hazard?

a report I listened to on local radio said it was Renobond / reynobond (however you spell it). I was tempted to throw a bit on a bonfire and see what happens but I'm certain it's a different product to what we use.
<<

Peter Wynne

User avatar

2 Star Contributor

Posts: 147

Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:06 pm

Country: United Kingdom (uk)




Post Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:18 pm

Re: Aluminium Composite Material - Is this a fire hazard?

According to this BBC news report, it would seem that it was indeed a polyethylene core;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40283980

Be interesting to see what happens going forward regarding the use of such panels...
<<

Emyr Evans

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 52

Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:06 pm





Post Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:26 pm

Re: Aluminium Composite Material - Is this a fire hazard?

<<

Andy Thorne

User avatar

Trade Supplier
Trade Supplier

Posts: 92

Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:25 pm

Country: United Kingdom (uk)




Post Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:30 pm

Re: Aluminium Composite Material - Is this a fire hazard?

Looks like it has been looked at for a while....

http://www.probyn-miers.com/perspective ... om-the-uk/
<<

James Sahota

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 884

Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:23 pm





Post Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:10 pm

Re: Aluminium Composite Material - Is this a fire hazard?

We did a massive job for our client who was printing for the London Underground...all the ACM used was fire rated I believe we used Reynobond which was a material TFL had tested for fire rating, I think the public inquiry which everyone is calling for will soon reveal the truth

Reports suggest that it was expandable foam used behind the panels which caused the fire to roar out of control!
<<

Robert Walker

User avatar

3 Star Contributor

Posts: 299

Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:09 pm

Country: United Kingdom (uk)




Post Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:31 pm

Re: Aluminium Composite Material - Is this a fire hazard?

I read some where that a non fire rated insulation between the Ali comp panels and the concrete building was used. It's scary that this has happened and how many other buildings may have the same issue.
<<

Steve Morgan

User avatar

L-Gold Member
L-Gold Member

Posts: 1265

Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 8:24 pm





Post Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:40 pm

Re: Aluminium Composite Material - Is this a fire hazard?

I believe that a year ago, or maybe two, there was a similar fire that engulfed a building somewhere in the middle east, could have been Dubai. I don't recall the same loss of life but I do remember that it was thought, on the day, that a composite cladding material was responsible for the rapid spread of flame.
<<

Brian Little

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 3859

Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 10:50 pm

Country: United Kingdom (uk)




Post Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:57 pm

Re: Aluminium Composite Material - Is this a fire hazard?

mi
<<

Colin Crabb

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 549

Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:50 pm





Post Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:34 pm

Re: Aluminium Composite Material - Is this a fire hazard?

Reports suggest that it was expandable foam used behind the panels which caused the fire to roar out of control!


Spot on James - the main issue is what's behind the ACM sheet.
Insulation materials such as cellotex are treated as a combustible material (once ignited they also burn quickly). The ACM panel then acts as a funnel / chimney further accelerating the spread of fire as it races towards the oxygen, in turn the panel delaminates, producing 'fire droplets' of molten aluminium & plastic.

This is why a lot of countries limit the height of cladding as used here.

The ACM panel on its own isn't the biggest problem - its what's behind & how its fitted (air gaps, fixing materials..).

Fire Brigade had issues years ago with ACM panels used in food hygiene prefabs - the panel clips were plastic, so melted in a fire allowing walls & ceiling to collapse.

Terrible fire & the building control inspectors (The local council) are going to have a lot of explaining to do, as is the government (we are on of the only European countries that allow a single exit staircase in tower blocks!!)
<<

Kevin Flowers

User avatar

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 3218

Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2003 11:30 am

Country: United Kingdom (uk)




Post Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:03 pm

Re: Aluminium Composite Material - Is this a fire hazard?

Unfortunately guys it was Reynobond PE (polyethylene) similar to what we use, Don't think its actually flammable on its own but in fire situation turns in to little balls of fire and red hot metal also gives of acrid smoke

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... -exteriors
<<

James Sahota

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 884

Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:23 pm





Post Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:30 pm

Re: Aluminium Composite Material - Is this a fire hazard?

Reynobond PE isn't fire rated the FR version is...I do hope these contractors didn't go for PE over the FR just to save on costs.
<<

Robert Lambie

User avatar

*****
*****

Posts: 27259

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2001 1:00 am

Country: United Kingdom (uk)




Post Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:38 pm

Re: Aluminium Composite Material - Is this a fire hazard?

See Video below

Watch on youtube.com
Attachments
acm-fire.jpg
<<

John Singh

User avatar

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 3923

Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2003 2:16 am





Post Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:28 am

Re: Grenfell Tower fire, Aluminium Composite Material - Is this a fire hazard?

So its the insulation in between the composite board

I did wonder because they said it was for insulation purposes why it was fitted and you would not think straight away of raynobond or dibond being used in such a way. It would be more of a cosmetic finish to the insulating core
<<

John Singh

User avatar

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 3923

Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2003 2:16 am





Post Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:36 am

Re: Grenfell Tower fire, Aluminium Composite Material - Is this a fire hazard?

So is Dibond and other makes fire safe?

We could boast of its quality and longevity and other aspects but this leaves me a little shaky in recommending to clients
<<

Steve Morgan

User avatar

L-Gold Member
L-Gold Member

Posts: 1265

Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 8:24 pm





Post Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:25 am

Re: Grenfell Tower fire, Aluminium Composite Material - Is this a fire hazard?

I think that the manufacturer of Dibond, Reynobond or any named ACM would have a spec sheet on their website or available by phone, failing that then your supplier should be able to provide one for the product.
It might be wise in the to be able to provide those details for any sign that is to be fiited into an indoor area.
<<

David Hammond

User avatar

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 3414

Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:17 am

Country: United Kingdom (uk)




Post Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:01 am

Re: Grenfell Tower fire, Aluminium Composite Material - Is this a fire hazard?

BBC News reporting this morning, that is the ACP they're testing.

1 authority has a certificate from the manufacturer/installer stating the panels are class 0 rated, however when the government has tested, it's come back as class 3, and needs to be removed.

Whether they're testing in the same manner, I don't know.

Concerns seem to be that the ACP delaminates, exposing the core, which burns and spreads the fire.

I'm quite surprised that the ACP seems have been a rather large contributing factor in the fire.
<<

Hugh Potter

User avatar

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 8485

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:43 am

Country: United Kingdom (uk)




Post Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Grenfell Tower fire, Aluminium Composite Material - Is this a fire hazard?

Watching the news this morning I saw them removing the boards, looks too thick to be the same 3mm stuff we use, the way they're handling it makes me think their stuff is much lighter too.

Do we have a confirmed product name / spec yet?
<<

John Singh

User avatar

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 3923

Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2003 2:16 am





Post Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:51 am

Re: Grenfell Tower fire, Aluminium Composite Material - Is this a fire hazard?

If you think about it composite board is being used right across the industry not just signs

Return to General Sign Topics



Who is online

Registered users:
No registered users

 

About
Contact
Board Rules
Membership
Terms & Conditions

 

Signapp - iPhone & iPad
Signapp - Android
Vehicle Wrap Training
Vinyl Application Training
Vehicle Wrap Accreditation
UK Sign Group
Site Membership
Advertising
Videos
British Signs & Graphics Assoc.

 

 Facebook
 Twitter
 Youtube
 Linkedin

 

Who is Online

In total there are 68 users online ::
1 registered, 0 hidden and 67 guests
[based on past 5 minutes]

Most users ever online was
370 on Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:02 pm

Registered users:
No registered users

Copyright © 2000 - 2019 Robert Lambie