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Is the Micro Business Sign maker slowly being legislated out of existence?

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Post Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:52 am

Is the Micro Business Sign maker slowly being legislated out of existence?

Is the Micro Business Sign maker slowly being legislated out of existence?

I ask this because of creeping legislation that seems to be headed our way. Typically CCS cards were the tip of the iceberg. Since then we have had CE regulations imposed on road signs which means even though the typical one man band sign business is perfectly capable of making a road sign he can't due to legislation. Now it looks like the need for ever more paperwork is headed our way. How long will it be before it is illegal to fit a sign without a paper trail so beloved of quality systems. After all, how difficult is it to screw a sign to a wall?

And don't dare decry overblown H&S requirements for fear of being labelled a "Cowboy".
I recently witnessed the ludicrous vision of a painter and decorator wearing a hard hat, hi visibility jacket and safety glasses whilst painting the skirting board in an office (Presumably to prevent the possibility of another painter and decorator from bumping into him or poking him in the eye with a paintbrush?)

Pretty soon we will need a full office support system to comply with all the regulations. In other words a full time office manager to support even a one man band. Bad news for the micro business but good news for the larger companies who can charge more once all the micro businesses have gone out of business. Or was that the plan all along?
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Post Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:58 am

Re: Is the Micro Business Sign maker slowly being legislated out of existence?

Hear hear! Are they EU directives by any chance?
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Post Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:00 am

Re: Is the Micro Business Sign maker slowly being legislated out of existence?

Phill Fenton wrote:Is the Micro Business Sign maker slowly being legislated out of existence?

I ask this because of creeping legislation that seems to be headed our way. Typically CCS cards were the tip of the iceberg. Since then we have had CE regulations imposed on road signs which means even though the typical one man band sign business is perfectly capable of making a road sign he can't due to legislation. Now it looks like the need for ever more paperwork is headed our way. How long will it be before it is illegal to fit a sign without a paper trail so beloved of quality systems. After all, how difficult is it to screw a sign to a wall?

And don't dare decry overblown H&S requirements for fear of being labelled a "Cowboy".
I recently witnessed the ludicrous vision of a painter and decorator wearing a hard hat, hi visibility jacket and safety glasses whilst painting the skirting board in an office (Presumably to prevent the possibility of another painter and decorator from bumping into him or poking him in the eye with a paintbrush?)

Pretty soon we will need a full office support system to comply with all the regulations. In other words a full time office manager to support even a one man band. Bad news for the micro business but good news for the larger companies who can charge more once all the micro businesses have gone out of business. Or was that the plan all along?



Vote Out tomorrow and see what changes are made then.

ive had the same dilemma, just went to renew my CRO card to fild that in Sept 2017 all is null and void and for the most part individuals will now have to complete a recognised course to fit window manifestations :O :O
i mean, wtf is wrong with this picture ? individuals and small businesses that have fitted signage and graphics for donkeys years trouble free now have to complete some ridiculous course just so they can make a living ??
id like to see them try and fit vinyl manifestations with non slip gloves on. - Madness
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Post Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:44 pm

Re: Is the Micro Business Sign maker slowly being legislated out of existence?

Hear Hear Phil!

I have said in another post, that when we looked at getting CSCS cards, each member of staff needs to have an NVQ to get one... at around £2000 each foe the NVQ, then the cost of the CSCS card. These are tied to the member of staff, so if they leave in 6months, you're back to square 1.

99% of H&S is common sense, we've worked from cherry pickers, and hired scaffold towers (without IPAF certificates) rather than balancing off ladders, sub contracted to better equipped fitters where required.

We had one customer ask us to get our CSCS cards so we couls fit for them, but didn't want to pay anymore for each install... in the end we sent them elsewhere and I believe they're having all sorts of fun and games.

We have only ever been asked for CSCS cards when working on construction sites, even if it's applying vinyl to the crew rooms portacabin wall, or screwing a hoarding to the perimiter fence... but we are getting asked for them more & more.

If I remember correctly the BSGA are the ones who represent 'the sign industry', and advised on the CSCS situation, planning laws, etc... however I have never had an answer as to what I get for my £600+ fee, when you look at their members, they are mainly larger outfits, and trade suppliers... so they do not represent the sign industry, only those who have forked out their fee's to have the rules changed in their favour... or is that rather narrow minded of me?

Perhaps the UKSG with its more reasonable membership fee's, more evenly spread membership, form a 'voice' for smaller, yet equally capable companies. Perhaps provide training to assist is obtain the CSCS cards?
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Post Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:14 pm

Re: Is the Micro Business Sign maker slowly being legislated out of existence?

I was thinking this this morning while driving to work, seemingly getting asked more and more for risk assessments etc. I usually avoid any shop / high st work which now requests such as I just don't have the time for it, I can spend the two hours it takes to assess a site fitting van signs for a profit and without leaving the workshop!

I did have visions of it ending up with just the large companies taking the cream of the work while the middle sized businesses just become obselete - too big for the small jobs and not big enough for the large contracts - I think it came about after I was given a price on a roll of 3m wrap and laminate 'kit' which was twice what I know a colleague is paying for the same material, yes he buys more than me but how is one to ever climb that ladder and remain competetive when the suppliers are chucking prices like that about!
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Post Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:16 pm

Re: Is the Micro Business Sign maker slowly being legislated out of existence?

i think where davids saying the cost of gaining a cscs card is £2000+ and then people can leave,

and im hearing phill saying how large companies will take over, chareg more etc.

i think for instance if it goes that far and gets out of hand, supply only, surely theres a joiner already on site who can fire the signs up, rather than the companies being held to ransom paying a big firm over the odds, all because the little guys been blocked out.

half the bother is wee bow and courtsy to everything that gets put in front of us everyhwere in this country, and until we stand up to eejits in offices coming up with a load of rubbish just to keep themselves in a job its going to get worse.

health and safety of course its got its place, but who in there right mind would genuinely put themselves in danger anyway.
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Post Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:24 pm

Re: Is the Micro Business Sign maker slowly being legislated out of existence?

further to my other post - the Bueaucracy is as a result of the large sign companies having connections to more powerful people and then lobbying government for change and more red tape which they know the smaller guys cannot hope to compete with, same in all industries. The large companies then get the contracts for the big work as they've already set themselves up knowing what the new legislation will be and have dealt with the back-handers already!!

That was once explained to me quite clearly by a late pal of mine, at the time a vice CEO of a large manufacturing firm (something to do with highways) that almost overnight cut out dozens of smaller businesses from supplying government contracts!
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Post Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:47 pm

Re: Is the Micro Business Sign maker slowly being legislated out of existence?

David Mitchell wrote:i think where davids saying the cost of gaining a cscs card is £2000+ and then people can leave,

and im hearing phill saying how large companies will take over, chareg more etc.

i think for instance if it goes that far and gets out of hand, supply only, surely theres a joiner already on site who can fire the signs up, rather than the companies being held to ransom paying a big firm over the odds, all because the little guys been blocked out.


Unfortunately CSCS cards now do not allow cross working so carpenter can't do carpet layers & vice versa etc This is why they are doing away with the basic cards. Most things are just paperwork exercises that never get to see the light of day unless something happens. All transpire from some EU legislation somewhere along the line.

Kev
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Post Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:40 pm

Re: Is the Micro Business Sign maker slowly being legislated out of existence?

jesus kevin, thats wild! no wonder this country is in a bad way!!
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Post Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:48 pm

Re: Is the Micro Business Sign maker slowly being legislated out of existence?

Kev is correct... some site managers will not allow the chippie who built the perimeter hoardings, screw your printed hoarding panels to it. Madness I know, but should your hoarding fall and injure someone, it will be the site managers head on the block, because the chippie hasn't got an NVQ in fitting signs. We had the same issue fitting 1 acrylic sign, on 4 barrel locators. :banghead:

I can understand this being the case with larger signs, where fitting is a bit more involved.

until we stand up to eejits in offices
here is the thing, the BSGA does stand up to them, and helps these things get passed, like CSCS cards for sign fitters, BS559, planning laws... you and I can join, take a look at their Membership Fee's and then have a read of the rules of membership.

When I worked in the Funeral Game, we had numerous federations and associations you could join (NAFD, SAIF, BIE), and each fought for their members best interests, and together made changes to the industry. With only 1 association, consisting of a handful of members, claiming to represent us all... I can see how it has made things difficult for us smaller companies.
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Post Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:27 pm

Re: Is the Micro Business Sign maker slowly being legislated out of existence?

If you check back in the searches you will find BGSA & CSCS card was well discussed when cards first came in. Never been a good idea, i ve had mind coming up to 10 years shown it twice on sites most sites aren't even aware signmakers have them & you end up doing inductions anyway, was also never accepted on the biggest building site the UK ever had "the Olympics" Its all about liability when things go wrong

Kev
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Post Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:48 am

Re: Is the Micro Business Sign maker slowly being legislated out of existence?

I wonder if leaving the EU will result in less regulation in the industry?
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Post Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:57 am

Re: Is the Micro Business Sign maker slowly being legislated out of existence?

Phill Fenton wrote:I wonder if leaving the EU will result in less regulation in the industry?


You would think it should, but will it?
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Post Tue Nov 08, 2016 7:54 pm

Re: Is the Micro Business Sign maker slowly being legislated out of existence?

When we did our PASMA course we happened to be joined by a sign fitter from a larger company, who had the week before got their CSCS card.

Their fitters use the green labourer cards, which from my quick research, appears you don't need the NVQ, and requires doing a one day H&S course, and the CITB course, before applying.

Looks like a quicker & cheaper way to get the required cards to allow us onto site.

Has anyone got their labouer card?
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Post Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:01 am

Re: Is the Micro Business Sign maker slowly being legislated out of existence?

David
they are stopping companies doing that because so many use it as a get around he probably got the green card because he is classed as a labourer to another sign installer with the correct card

https://www.cscs.uk.com/news/green-card-changes/

Kev
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Post Wed Nov 09, 2016 8:57 am

Re: Is the Micro Business Sign maker slowly being legislated out of existence?

From the way he spoke they've all gone the green card route? I explained the changes about requiring an NVQ to get a card, and he was as puzzled as everyone else, nobody at their firm has done their NVQ that he knows of?
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Post Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:03 am

Re: Is the Micro Business Sign maker slowly being legislated out of existence?

Bar a couple of occasions with local council jobs worths whilst I was fitting work I managed to avoid all this legistlation.

Am I glad to have retired or what!! :smiles:
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Post Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:06 am

Re: Is the Micro Business Sign maker slowly being legislated out of existence?

We're going the other way and being asked for it more, at the moment we're subbing out the fitting, even applying a small sticker to portacabin, because we don't have a bit of plastic, and fitters with CSCS can charge a premium as they know it's required.

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