my invisible text
Categories
  • TIMELINE

Anyone had problems with 3M - IJ380 digital film?

<<

User avatar

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 44

Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:58 pm





Post Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:33 pm

Anyone had problems with 3M - IJ380 digital film?

Hi folks,
I was wondering if there are any other people out there using 3M cast digital films and if you've experienced any problems?
We made the switch from Avery about 12 months ago and have experienced nothing but trouble with the IJ70 and IJ380 (matt and gloss).
The IJ70 was withdrawn from sale following on from issues that we'd had along with a few other sign companies.
Every batch of the IJ380 seems to print differently and I'd even question if we're getting the same material sometimes as the adhesives are different colours (they swap between light grey and dark grey) and even after 4+ days gassing off before lamination they're grabby and stretchy as hell, however the light grey adhesive does seem to perform better...
We never experienced this level of inconsistency using the Avery material and are seriously considering making the switch back... the only thing the 3M has over the Avery is the level of support and service from William Smith.
Please don't post asking about our processes we've been printing for years and know what we're doing, I'm just interested to see if any other people have experienced problems with these materials.
Thanks!
<<

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 2876

Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 7:08 pm





Post Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:47 pm

Hi Natasha - Welcome

Sorry I cant help you on this, I see this is your first post but a quick intro from yourself in the say hello section might get you more response from some of the knowledgeable peeps on the site :D

John
<<

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 1138

Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:57 pm





Post Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:43 pm

380 has controltac so definitely shouldn't be grabby.
<<

1 Star Contributor

Posts: 57

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:14 pm





Post Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:14 pm

I've fitted over 300 vans with ij380 never had any problems with it like that, saying that it was screen printed.
<<

User avatar

L-Gold Member
L-Gold Member

Posts: 7021

Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:02 pm





Post Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:57 pm

Mr grumpy here

i find the question a bit hard to follow

why did you change from Avery

3M has over the Avery is the level of support and service from William Smith.
but not enough.



Please don't post asking about our processes we've been printing for years and know what we're doing,


in amongst the crack pot answers will be the jem you are looking for and excludes me from asking another question.

:peek:
<<

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 1355

Joined: Fri May 10, 2002 8:37 pm





Post Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:21 pm

We all learn every day surely ? :roll:

<going>
<<

User avatar

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 44

Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:58 pm





Post Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:43 pm

Anyone had problems with 3M - IJ380 digital film?

We switched from Avery as we did the 3M vehicle wrap course, the support we get from William Smith is great too - as opposed to the supplier(s) of the Avery products.
We're printing the material digitally mainly on the XC540 and as previously mentioned our gassing off time is ridiculously long... 4-7 days.
The material seems to perform differently from roll to roll and with the different coloured adhesives, I was just wondering if anyone else had noticed anything like this either.
Thanks for the replies.
<<

User avatar

L-Gold Member
L-Gold Member

Posts: 7021

Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:02 pm





Post Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:54 pm

we found with other 3m materials and a lot of wrap type vinyls that they don't like a high ink load and or excessive laminating pressure or heat.
although not a wrap material we love the ij40 - ij25 the ij20 did the same as you describe when loaded with more than 240 % ink.
using a different make wrap vinyl found that the area printed 100 % load behaved correctly but in the very dark areas was grabby tested later with reduced total ink load to be fine.

test your self with a unprinted piece of material that is laminated.

chris
<<

User avatar

*****
*****

Posts: 27285

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2001 1:00 am

Country: United Kingdom (uk)




Post Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:29 pm

are you laminating hot or cold?
IJ380 should be laminated cold.
i am not saying this is the reason for your problem, just thinking out loud on possibilities, as cold lamination is something stipulated by 3M. at least it was on the introductory course of the wrap material i attended.
<<

User avatar

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 44

Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:58 pm





Post Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:58 am

lot of wrap type vinyls that they don't like a high ink load


There is a high ink load but the vehicles we're doing are the same each time - approx 15 per month for one firm and the print design has remained unchanged for 6 years. It's the material behaving differently despite the inks and production processes remaining the same.

I hear what you're saying about high ink load but that makes me wonder why we're using them... if the materials don't like ink then I guess putting it bluntly, they're not fit for purpose!

I agree with you on the IJ40 and IJ25 - so consistent, we print that on any of our machines and we get the same flawless results every time, we're really impressed on those materials over the Avery equivalents - and the pricing is on a parr too.

are you laminating hot or cold?


We're laminating cold.

We're toying with the idea of a latex printer to replace our older Roland, the sales pitch seems to suggest we'd eliminate these problems altogether, what do you think?
<<

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 1138

Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:57 pm





Post Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:14 am

They never mentioned cold lamination when we did the course.

Is it stated anywhere in their literature?
<<

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 11424

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:22 pm





Post Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:16 am

Hi Natasha, welcome

I have two sc540's running techink bulk inks. I use IJ380 exclusivley.

IJ380cv2 was harder to apply over the newer cv3 version adhesive. Which one are you using?

I cold apply laminate as well as heat apply liquid laminate, the heat application of liquid laminate does make the application harder, probably a combination of the heat and the thinner coating.

The different colours of the adhesive would indicate different versions though.

.
<<

User avatar

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 44

Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:58 pm





Post Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:27 am

IJ380cv2 was harder to apply over the newer cv3 version adhesive. Which one are you using?


I'm presuming the easier one to use is the lighter grey adhesive?
We've had a new batch arrive yesterday, can't tell if it's version 2 or 3 but it's batch dated 22.1.2010 and it has a dark grey adhesive with a slight pattern in it it, as opposed to a light grey adhesive that appears in lines on the other stuff.
I think we'll keep better tabs on dates and batch numbers in future.

They never mentioned cold lamination when we did the course.
Is it stated anywhere in their literature?


I think it's in the technical bulletin but we have been repeatedly asked whether we're heat applying laminate
<<

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 11424

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:22 pm





Post Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:43 am

Natasha Thomas wrote:
IJ380cv2 was harder to apply over the newer cv3 version adhesive. Which one are you using?


I'm presuming the easier one to use is the lighter grey adhesive?
We've had a new batch arrive yesterday, can't tell if it's version 2 or 3 but it's batch dated 22.1.2010 and it has a dark grey adhesive with a slight pattern in it it, as opposed to a light grey adhesive that appears in lines on the other stuff.
I think we'll keep better tabs on dates and batch numbers in future.

They never mentioned cold lamination when we did the course.
Is it stated anywhere in their literature?


I think it's in the technical bulletin but we have been repeatedly asked whether we're heat applying laminate


It should have the version number on the end of the box. IJ380cv3 should be the code.

CV3 looks like the adhesive has been put on with a roller. Its a scattered pattern, not like cv2 that is a regular lined patteren.

Only thing I'm wondering is if its cv1 or cv2. I seemed to remember that cv3 was not being imported into the UK. Could be wrong, but when I was over there last year, cv3 was not on the agenda to bring in.

cv1 should say IJ380... cv2 should be labeled IJ380cv2.. I buy both cv2 and cv3 here.
<<

User avatar

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 44

Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:58 pm





Post Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:50 am

The box is labeled IJ380-20 GSS3-2 - it's -20 as it's the matt version. It's the darker adhesive with the scattered pattern
<<

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 11424

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:22 pm





Post Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:15 am

Looking at this UK 3M site, I'm thinking your IJ380 is not the latest version. From memory, cv1 was a darker adhesive that cv2. cv1 was definately grabby compared to cv2.

http://solutions.3m.co.uk/wps/portal/3M ... NNZ200W6ge

Given this advert from the US 3M site, I'm thinking that its not cv3 as we have here, which is a pity, because it is by far the best version

http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebse ... 2t222222--
<<

User avatar

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 44

Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:58 pm





Post Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:44 am

Thanks so much for your help Shane, looking at what you've sent me, yours is the comply adhesive - we're not using that due to the nature of the recesses on the vehicles we're fitting.
My head's in a spin with all this now! I know that our distributors know that there's a problem but in the mean time we're losing money testing rolls and sending them back!
<<

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 11424

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:22 pm





Post Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:07 pm

Natasha Thomas wrote:Thanks so much for your help Shane, looking at what you've sent me, yours is the comply adhesive - we're not using that due to the nature of the recesses on the vehicles we're fitting.
My head's in a spin with all this now! I know that our distributors know that there's a problem but in the mean time we're losing money testing rolls and sending them back!


Thats the beauty of cv3 Natasha, it goes into deep recesses like a dream. with a stretch of 50% and the new adhesive, not many recesses that are too deep.

Never a fan of cv1... unfortunately. Sorry I can't help any more. If I were your distributors, I'd be having a few words with 3M to get you out of this mess. No fun at all and the more failures you get the less confidence in the product, and that is not what 3M will want at all.

Forgot to say that the ink load will not be an issue either. As long as air is blowing over the surface of the print when its drying, you shouldn't have an issue. The ink load can be upto 300% on some inks so I'd be confidet the ink you are putting down should be OK.
<<

User avatar

3 Star Contributor

Posts: 234

Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:39 pm





Post Fri May 14, 2010 11:07 pm

HI Natasha,

re your quote

My head's in a spin with all this now! I know that our distributors know that there's a problem but in the mean time we're losing money testing rolls and sending them back!

Re the above, if Avery worked and you never had problems chnage back until WM Smiths solve the problem?

Try the other Avery distributor if thats the issue maybe the support will be better.

Hope its not us that didnt support you.

Regards
<<

User avatar

1 Star Contributor

Posts: 42

Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:59 pm





Post Mon May 17, 2010 10:15 pm

IJ-380 digital film

Hi Natasha,

I know that you requested that no-one post to ask your procedures as you're very experienced and I respect that, but we are applying at least 3-5 vehicle wraps per week on IJ-380 and also run the product training days for this film in conjunction with 3M so I am very familiar with how it performs. Whilst I acknowledge there have been some print quality issues with the product (which have now been ironed out, although there may still be a few problem rolls in circulation) there should be no reason for the film being of a tacky or grabby nature. This problem would be down to outgassing and no other reason as controltac is very user friendly and offers unrivaled re-positionability, but only if outgassed correctly before lamination.
You say you are leaving them long enough but may I ask exactly how you are letting them outgas?
I am keen to assist with this problem if at all possible and would see the drying of the graphics the only possible/potential cause of this problem

Return to Vinyl



 

About
Contact
Board Rules
Membership
Terms & Conditions

 

Signapp - iPhone & iPad
Signapp - Android
Vehicle Wrap Training
Vinyl Application Training
Vehicle Wrap Accreditation
UK Sign Group
Site Membership
Advertising
Videos
British Signs & Graphics Assoc.

 

 Facebook
 Twitter
 Youtube
 Linkedin

 

Who is Online

In total there are 87 users online ::
5 registered, 0 hidden and 82 guests
[based on past 5 minutes]

Most users ever online was
370 on Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:02 pm

Registered users:
Alex Crosbie, Hugh Potter, Kevin Mahoney

Copyright © 2000 - 2019 Robert Lambie