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The New HP Latex Inkjet Printer

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Paul Hodges

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Post Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:57 pm

The New HP Latex Inkjet Printer

The New HP Latex Inkjet Printer
Does anyone know anything about these Latex inkjet printers?

Had an email from William Smith,, apparently these things are odourless inks, instantly cured, no outgassing, 5 years outdoors laminated.

They are HP printers.

Cheers
Paul
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Sean Warburton

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Post Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:08 pm

They're also around £20k for 1m machine!
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Paul Hodges

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Post Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:33 pm

are they really? blimey that's a bit high end then, the one they're advertising is a 60" machine!
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Robert Lambie

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Post Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:41 pm

i am unsure on prices at the moment but i have to say that these new HP latex machines are certainly the way forward.
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Owen Lees

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Post Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:16 pm

Robert Lambie wrote:i am unsure on prices at the moment but i have to say that these new HP latex machines are certainly the way forward.


Rob... why? how? Care to illuminate me? What do they give us - and be nice cos I haven't seen one until today!

Oo
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Gill Harrison

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Post Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:29 pm

Hi there

I am going to take a closer look at the L25500 tomorrow........If its half as good as it's big brother the L65500 then as Rob says it's the way forward. When I first saw the L65500 the first thing that struck me was the smell or should I say lack of it, No solvents to out-gas.

We printed wrap vinyls, laminated them and fitted them all within a couple of hours, the chap we used to do the wrapping said it was fantastic to fit as even though it had full inks it fitted like virgin vinyl with no inks at all and for me that is the real test of any new bit of kit regardless of what us sales people say :rabble:

Its 60" (1524mm) wide not 1m wide and I believe it is in the region of 20K, I'll have more info after tomorrow regards to print speeds and ink costs etc.



Gill
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Robert Lambie

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Post Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:45 pm

as i said, i wasnt aware of prices but £20k for a 60" wide machine is more or less the going rate for solvent printers, so there is little to choose from there on Solvent -v- Latex based on Price?

H&S...
on the whole, whether we like it or not, we are swiftly being forced in the whole H&S side of printing and the like. I recon it is only a matter of time before the door is closed on solvent machines unless strict H&S guidelines are followed. yes, maybe this will be a few years down the line, but still!
so Solvent -v- Latex on H&S... Latex wins hands down.

Eco-Freindly
Same applies on everything to do with our environment these days...
with this in mind, Solvent just doesn't cut it in comparison to water based inks... Solvent -v- Latex.... Latex wins hands down.

Production...
lets take a vehicle wrap. Solvent printer requires a minimum of 24hrs to outgas. latex is more or less print and laminate.
ever had a panel wasted on a wrap and had to tell your customer it will be another day and a half to finish the job due to a single panel being wasted?
even regular vinyl, you still need to leave it 24hrs to outgas before laminating, fine if its flat work we tend to chance our arm a bit more and cut that down to half a day, but really, we know fine well it should be 24hrs. Latex is print laminate fit...
prints that arent laminated and we try fitting before out-gassing are like chewing gum and will spoil if touched... latex wont, print and fit...
i am sure you see the picture i am building here?
so based on production benefits, solvent -v latex... Latex wins hands down.

Print out-put...
i havent seen this first hand, should have though and meant to at sign uk on the ArtSystems stand. but due to the ink being Latex it has a higher biting/bonding to vinyl than the likes of Solvent inks and the print output is more vibrant. so again on print quality Solvent -v- Latex, latex wins!

Machine damage....
we all know the effects solvent has on our machines. it and eats into all the plastic parts. even bulk ink carts chorode after months of holding ink constantly. as does tubes and the like. so wear and tear on the machine for a solvent machine is very high. the same does not apply with a water based ink as it corrode nothing. so machine damage
on solvent -v- latex... latex wins hands down....

i am sure there will be many other benefits... but for me on the face of it... i honestly do think this is the move in the right direction.
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Andre Woodcock

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Post Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:34 am

The good news Rob, is that there has been report that there is an after-market latex ink which works on our existing Roland, Mutoh, Mimaki etc... Still being tested. It actual working with the existing heater these printers. Hopefully no further modifications will be required.
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Jason Xuereb

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Post Wed Oct 14, 2009 6:15 am

How is the print quality with the really small stuff compared to the Roland's in 1440dpi mode?

I won't get to see one for a week and a half :)
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David Rowland

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Post Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:25 am

all very interesting... yes £20K certainly got me interested, I thought those machines were nearer 100K, but im wrong!
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Jon Marshall

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Post Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:25 am

I think this machine is definitely going to shake up the market. I wonder if the other manufacturers are going to respond?

The only downside I have heard is that the heads need changing a lot on latex machines. Apparently it is a simple swap over on this one though.
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Paul Hodges

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Post Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:59 am

don't think they do print & cut though do they? that's one feature i wouldn't want to lose if at all possible.

also need to know what the ink costs/cartridge arrangement is
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Tom Plunkett

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Post Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:16 am

Unlike fixed head printers like Roland and Mimaki, the printhead on an HP is treated as a consumable item - my understanding is that on the new latex printer the heads will last for 3 sets of ink, before replacement is necessary.

Not sure on exact head cost on the new printer, but the printheads for the Designjet 5500 printers sell for circa £75.

When comparing running costs of machines this obviously needs to be factored in.

Ink costs have been announced as €200 for a 775ml cartridge.

As regards the machine itself - it uses solvent-free inks (water-based HP Latex Inks - no hazard warning labels, no HAPs, no special ventilation required, and prints without generating any noxious odours), this latex ink is supposedly as durable as eco-solvent print.

Perhaps Rob will get some samples and do his famous durability/rub test that he did way back when on Uniform print. :)

Another nice feature is that the prints are instantly dry off the printer - so print can be immediately laminated, or indeed sent out to the customer.

At very least it is certainly a printer worth reviewing for anyone in a buying cycle, or considering their next printer.

As regards the impact this machine will have on the market - if HP do as they did back in the Encad Novajet days, and run an aggressive upgrade campaign against trade-in of solvent ink printers - then they could have a huge impact on the market.
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Andre Woodcock

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Post Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:14 pm

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Stuart Taylor

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Post Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:55 pm

Thought I better post some clarification on some of the points raised around this technology before it becomes gospel.

As has been already stated Latex Inks are water based, odourless, no HAPs, extremely low VOCs, no extraction or special environment requirements, green environmental solutions with no waste disposal issues.

The L25500 comes in two widths 60" and 42", is front loading and can virtually be pushed up against a wall as only limited access is required to the rear.

Its a 6 Colour printer at 1200Dpi resolution and has 6 x Printheads, each being dual colour heads K/Y, lc/C and lm/M. The heads are classed as a consumable and are Thermal but even HPs conservative estimate is 4 litres (5 cartridges lifetime)

Ink costs for the UK are much lower than the 200 euro cost mentioned and are comparable or lower per sq m than all OEM 440/500ml solvent and eco solvent cartridges I have come across - I would rather not start publishing prices on forums but we are more than happy to discuss prices of inks directly with clients. Even when you factor in the head as a consumable cost it works out comparable or less per sq m than Solvent or Eco Sol OEM Cartridges.

I have spent a full day with the 60" version and it is really impressive- Good Speed, Great Quality and Instant Use !! As Rob has described pros and cons already I keep trying to find the negatives compared to other older technologies but am yet to find a reason to buy solvent over Latex.

Please fire any other questions about this technology at us and will be happy to reply.

Stuart
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Paul Hodges

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Post Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:42 pm

Hi Stuart

Thanks for the details so far.

My first question would be what about the latex water based performance as regards printing on materials that are unlaminated, versus solvent and eco sol max etc?

Laminating your prints is all well and good but what about banner printing etc? Can we expect similar durability to solvent?

Paul
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Stuart Taylor

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Post Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:58 pm

Paul Hodges wrote:Hi Stuart

Thanks for the details so far.

My first question would be what about the latex water based performance as regards printing on materials that are unlaminated, versus solvent and eco sol max etc?

Laminating your prints is all well and good but what about banner printing etc? Can we expect similar durability to solvent?

Paul


Hi Paul

HP state an unlaminated exterior durability of 3 years and 5 year exterior laminated - This is obviously far better than the older aqueous inks which would have had vitually no exterior durability.

The clever part of Latex inks is that during the curing/drying process the excess water is evaporated and the "latex" is cured and encapsulates the pigments on the vinyl thus creating almost an inbuilt self laminate which protects from UV and light abrasion and the elements. The addition of a physical laminate improves durability and abrasion resistance.

Hope this makes sense

Stuart
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David Rowland

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Post Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:38 pm

that is very interesting Stuart.... isn't there a flatbed model?
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Stuart Taylor

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Post Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:07 pm

Dave Rowland wrote:that is very interesting Stuart.... isn't there a flatbed model?


Hi Dave

Not as yet ....... but I guess watch this space

HP are definitely going to roll out this technology on all of their platforms eventually. I think the launch on the L65500 was logical as a wide format (104" wide) printer with production speeds of up to 80 sq m/hr a premium level launch. They've now covered the mass market Mimaki/Roland/Mutoh area with the L25500 in 60" and 42" widths which makes it affordable for any digital printer/sign maker.

If I were to guess I would expect either a super-wide 5m and 3m wide options next, but would not be surprised to see a flatbed version at some point ...... but no news yet from HP on that so I am just guessing at this.

Stuart
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David Rowland

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Post Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:15 pm

first time i saw Latex was on something like a 65500 this time last year at Paris or geneva shows, its something i will be keeping an eye on, my main requirement is printing onto clear of around 2mm thick and then blacking with white. The UV properties and laminate to the ink will go someway towards product we work with. hmmm interesting.
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Jason Xuereb

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Post Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:27 pm

Hey Stuart,

How is the quality on really small stuff say 2" by 1" labels. What point text can you go to and still have it legible?
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Andre Woodcock

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Post Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:50 am

I saw the Designjet 65500 at the Middle east Sign & graphic expo 09 in February. The print of the Latex ink was indeed impressive and all media including tyvek and high gloss media. The front media loading is a bonus for small sign shop.
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Stuart Taylor

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Post Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:57 am

Jason Xuereb wrote:Hey Stuart,

How is the quality on really small stuff say 2" by 1" labels. What point text can you go to and still have it legible?


Hi Jason

It can handle small text better than my eyesight !!

I have a sample I'm looking at now that is perfectly legible at 4pt lowercase ... you might get away with 3pt and I can't even see 2pt !!!

Stuart
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Jason Xuereb

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Post Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:33 am

Cheers Stuart.

I will be seeing this machine on Friday and I am very keen at the moment if I see what I like.

What are the negatives on these machines versus the solvent machines?

Even if you can comment on the wider 2.5m machine.
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Stuart Taylor

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Post Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:08 am

Jason Xuereb wrote:Cheers Stuart.

I will be seeing this machine on Friday and I am very keen at the moment if I see what I like.

What are the negatives on these machines versus the solvent machines?

Even if you can comment on the wider 2.5m machine.


Hi Jason

With all honesty I am still trying to find the negatives over existing technologies such as solvent or eco-sol but I struggle to find any.

As has already been stated you get a green solution with the water based inks,
no smells,
no extraction,
no expense from filter changes in an APS,
no maintenance or physical costs for an extraction system,
no waste disposal issues,
very low VOCs,
no HAPs,
instant curing,
no outgassing,
immediate lamination,
immediate fitting,
up to 5 year outdoor laminated, 3 years unlaminated
no effects on material adhesives or characteristics,
wider range of materials that are possible to print ..................

I guess the only thing that buyers need to think about is because the technology is water based it uses Thermal rather than Piezo heads and the head is considered a consumable - but to be quite honest even this is not a negative as the cost when converted to a sq metre cost and added to the ink cost is still comparable or less than the equivalent solvent or eco sol cartridge and you do not have any additional risk of expensive piezo head replacement that you have with existing technology.

Only other thing that may be a negative in Oz is due to the higher heat settings used to evaporate the excess water you may find you need to turn your air-con up a notch but in the UK it should be a plus in the Winter .... or even the Summer over here :D

Look forward to hearing your feedback after Friday

Stuart
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Jason Xuereb

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Post Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:21 am

Cheers Stuart.


Are the high temperatures needed a problem with monomeric calendared vinyls and similar medias that are susceptible to high heat?

I know our Roland's are in the 50 degree Celsius range but I think the HP is around the 100 mark. Is this also an issue with polypropylene for pull up banners?
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Stuart Taylor

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Post Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:51 pm

Jason Xuereb wrote:Cheers Stuart.


Are the high temperatures needed a problem with monomeric calendared vinyls and similar medias that are susceptible to high heat?

I know our Roland's are in the 50 degree Celsius range but I think the HP is around the 100 mark. Is this also an issue with polypropylene for pull up banners?


Hi Jason

Not seen any problems so far - As you may be aware the L65500 has been available for around 12 months now and this requires similar temperatures as the smaller L25500 - I have seen it print without any issues on cast, polymeric and monomeric PVC films and also various banner materials, tyvek, polyester, poster papers and some non PVC films such as polyolefin. - sometimes requires a little tweaking with profiling but shouldn't be a problem.

Stuart
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Post Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:12 pm

so the Latex printer still has a printbed heater? where it warms the media up?

What thickness can it go to?
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Post Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:20 pm

Cheers Stuart.

Dave: Check out this video. Explains alot. http://h10088.www1.hp.com/gap/flash/HPD ... HowTo.html
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Stuart Taylor

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Post Tue Oct 20, 2009 2:24 pm

Dave Rowland wrote:so the Latex printer still has a printbed heater? where it warms the media up?

What thickness can it go to?


Hi Dave

The Hp Latex printers are currently only on roll to roll and roll to floor platforms and not flatbed - The L65500 is a 104" wide printer and the L25500 comes in two widths 60" and 42" - I won't be surprised to see a flatbed version in the future but no timescale as yet from Hp.

Stuart
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David Rowland

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Post Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:27 pm

great find jason.... many thanks for that....
certainly a printer that got a lot of features covered...
i have to say, two power cables means a high-wattage, so electric will have to be calculated within your ink costs, but that video is very very good.
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Post Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:16 am

That printer sure does have a lot more features then other comparable solvent printers. The OMAS and inbuilt spectrophotometer are huge pluses.

It really seems like they've leaped the competition in a number of areas on paper.

I will let you guys know what I find on Friday.
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Post Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:28 am

yes it is and it's making outdoor printing easier and more user friendly. I wonder how much one of those carts are as they contain 750g? of ink, + the electric and any counters on the heads/consumables.

What about HP Warranties? its easy to change a head but how about a circuit board failure or a heater?
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Stuart Taylor

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Post Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:45 pm

Dave Rowland wrote:yes it is and it's making outdoor printing easier and more user friendly. I wonder how much one of those carts are as they contain 750g? of ink, + the electric and any counters on the heads/consumables.

What about HP Warranties? its easy to change a head but how about a circuit board failure or a heater?


Hi Dave

The printer comes with a standard 1 year warranty and the heads as a consumable are warranted for a year or .8l ink .... however as the head technology has a proven track record in the Hp Z6100 and the L25500 head is very similar Hp are stating expected lifetime of around 4 litres per head (Hp are normally quite conservative with their estimates) and if this is calculated as a sq m cost it would equate to around 20p per sq m for typical image prints.

The Hp Latex ink cart is 775ml and ink costs are at worst comparable and in most cases less than the cost per litre of an official mild solvent or eco sol cartridge and this is based on including the head into the sq m costings.

Regarding power consumption you are looking at a maximum of 3.5Kw for the 42" model and 4.8Kw for the 60" version This appears high but again comparing to similar width models that require heat, extraction etc the price per sq m is very similar. Taking the worst scenario if you compare the 60" model to a JV5 with an APS the difference will be around 0.5 Kw/hr which would equate to around 2p per hour or 0.2p per sq m @ 8 pass mode or 0.1p per sq in 4 pass mode.

I believe in most cases when comparing ink and running costs of the Latex to a similar 60" solvent or eco sol ink printers the cost per sq m will be around the same or lower. We are happy to go through these figures with individual companies and give group or private printer demos for those who interested in learning more about this technology.

Stuart
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Post Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:23 am

Jon Marshall wrote:I wonder if the other manufacturers are going to respond?

Mimaki UVJ ?

Who wanted Print and Cut? Roland LEC-330. Only 30 inch though.


This sort of thing would be great for streamlining production though. Print coming out of printer, straight through the laminator, then onto a take-up roll. Brilliant.

My only thought (at the moment - I'm sure there will be others later) is ink wasteage. Sure, on the HP, you can put a new cartridge in for overnight printing, then put the old one back in the morning to use the ink left in it, but at some point you have to make a decision as to whether you have enough ink to finish your current job, and throw the cartridge away with some ink left in it. I can also foresee lots of part used cartridges laying around our print room. Having said that, the bigger cartridge capacity will help reduce that problem.

On the JV33, with two cartridges per colour, it empties one completely, then automatically switches over to the second cartridge. No waste whatsoever. For that reason I think I'd have preferred to see the HP use a similar two times four ink system rather than than one times six. but maybe that's just me. :D
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Post Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:36 am

John Childs wrote:
Jon Marshall wrote:I wonder if the other manufacturers are going to respond?

Mimaki UVJ ?

Who wanted print and Cut? Roland LEC-330. Only 30 inch though.


I don't think its just the type of ink sets. Its the technology present in the printer itself, regardless of the ink set.

I don't think I've seen features present in this HP Latex printer amongst anything in the market in the same price bracket. Maybe the higher end industrial UV printers have similar technology and/or features.

I know HP's latest water based printers have the same features which lend themselves to this machine.

Well I'm off to sleep and get to see this machine in the flesh tomorrow. I will be hopefully doing some test prints and report my findings on the weekend.
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Stuart Taylor

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Post Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:25 pm

I've just got off the phone after speaking with Rob and he's given me the ok to invite any uksb members who would like to see this technology first hand along to a couple of open days that we are running at Nottingham.

This is an open house event to give you the opportunity to come along and see the printer in action and then ask as many questions as you would like. The 2 days are Thursday 29th October and Tuesday the 3rd of November, please feel free to either pm me and I will e-mail you back further details or get in touch with our marketing or Gill for details (Wm Smith details are on the toolbar)

I will of course still be happy to continue to answer further questions here.

Would be great to see a few of you down at Nottingham.

Stuart
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Post Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:45 pm

Stuart Taylor wrote:a couple of open days that we are running at Nottingham.

Coffee?
Sandwiches?
Cakes?

:D :D :D :D :D
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Gill Harrison

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Post Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:21 pm

John Childs wrote:
Stuart Taylor wrote:a couple of open days that we are running at Nottingham.

Coffee?
Sandwiches?
Cakes?

:D :D :D :D :D


:lol1: :lol1: only if you get in before Stu.... :wink:
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Post Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:00 pm

I may be wrong on this,but with this latex printer you cannot liquid laminate afterword's. Can this be confirmed?

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