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im struggling to apply Black vinyl onto glass correctly?

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Post Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:46 pm

im struggling to apply Black vinyl onto glass correctly?

I have some windows to do which will need to have some cut graphics applied first and then backed up with black vinyl.

This will all be done in reverse on the inside of the glass

The problem I have is that many of the windows have very poor access - counters in the way etc and so I will need to apply the black wet to be able to slide into position.

I have applied black before wet to inside of glass and had problems with milky white patches appearing, they didn't disappear with time so I ended up re-doing that job dry.

What am I doing wrong? Should I be using a different vinyl?

I done some test pieces today with just water and using
Rimark 5 year 400 series
Grafitack 5 year 100 series

and once again get the milky patches

any advice most welcome

Colin
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Post Sat Oct 20, 2007 9:12 pm

i would recommend you move up a grade - black on a window is not the best combination. some glues have that reaction, permanent acrylic type should be ok

chris
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Post Sat Oct 20, 2007 9:22 pm

On Monday morning we've got to cover twenty windows in black.

There are no access problems because it's a new building and the furniture doesn't get delivered until Tuesday. We're going to try the MacTac bubble free stuff. I'll let you know how we get on.
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Post Sat Oct 20, 2007 9:29 pm

The milky glue usually occurs when using water based adhesives if you 1. work slowly or 2. leave trapped water.

Using a 'permanent acrylic' adhesive backed vinyl should help the problem. It's almost certainly caused by water 'pooling' in the cut 'holes' and getting trapped. Working dry is the only sure-fire method of stopping this - or leaving a small 1 or 2mm gap round the graphics / text.

Dave
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Post Sat Oct 20, 2007 10:39 pm

Thanks for the advice

I have checked the specs of both the vinyls I tested today and both specify permanent acrylic adhesive.

The only spec I can find which is different is 10 yr Ritrama vinyl which is permanent solvent adhesive

I guess this will not be so affected by the water

I agree the problem is with pooling water around the cut out text

John I would be interested to hear more about the mactac bubble free material is it expensive?

Colin
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Post Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:05 pm

I think that if you apply wet you are going to get the milky effect whatever type of adhesive the vinyl has, although it will probably be less with solvent acrylics.

I can't remember the price of the MacTac bubble free exactly, but I'll check on Monday. It's the first time we've used it and I'm hoping that the extra cost will be more than offset by the time saved in application.
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Post Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:14 pm

black vinyl

the problem you are having has nothing to do with colour or grade of vinyl it is purely down to the adhesive on the vinyl - some vinyls use a water based adhesive which is fine for most jobs but useless on glass where you can see it afterwards , make sure you use a vinyl with a solvent acrylic adhesive and you will be fine putting it on wet.
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Post Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:57 pm

You are a brave lot, putting black vinyl onto windows. Last time I did that the windows cracked from the heat absorbed by the vinyl.
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Post Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:00 am

Re: black vinyl

Sean Comrie wrote:the problem you are having has nothing to do with colour or grade of vinyl it is purely down to the adhesive on the vinyl - some vinyls use a water based adhesive which is fine for most jobs but useless on glass where you can see it afterwards , make sure you use a vinyl with a solvent acrylic adhesive and you will be fine putting it on wet.
I use water based adhesive vinyl for about 95% of all of my work, including floodcoating hundreds of square metres of windows (wet), window graphics (wet & dry). If you get all of the water out - it's perfect - if not, it WILL go horrible & white. If just a little milky (took to long to squeegee) then it'll be sorted after a day or two in the sun.

Andy Gorman wrote:You are a brave lot, putting black vinyl onto windows. Last time I did that the windows cracked from the heat absorbed by the vinyl.
Yeh, heard of several cracked window caused by very dark vinyl being applied where there is direct sunlight.

Dave
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Post Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:38 pm

black vinyl on glass

I agree with David that if you get all the water out you shouldn't have a problem but I cant see the point in taking the risk if it is easily avoided.

I had a problem with some frosted a couple of years ago where it went milky in some areas, the problem didn't clear up after a few days as most of the glass wasn't in direct sunlight and it was fitted in the middle of the winter to an office that was being refurbished.

It turned out that the manufacturer had changed the adhesive, when we refitted with arylic adhesive there was no problem.
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Post Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:08 am

Thanks for all the advice

Have already told client about risk of glass cracking as Ive heard about that before.

My test samples from yesterday have dried out a little and are not so milky but still not acceptable. Where I have applied and got the water out is fine but where its ridging over the cut text its still milky.

Gonna ring up supplier tomorrow and get a sample of 10 year solvent adhesive vinyl to test.

Will let you know how that performs

Colin
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Post Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:16 am

Colin, you don't say what fluid you are using.
My view is that you are only likely to get milking on short term vinyls classed as semi-permanent removable such as 2-3 year term or exhibition grade.
They have a water based adhesive so fluid will dissolve it and cause pooling which can not be got rid of.
Fluid wise, washing up liquid is a definite no IMHO as there are too many additives plus colour again which will not dry clear.
You need to use a proprietary application fluid together with just permanent solvent based adhesive (generally 5 year vinyl onwards).
One more thing, that glass has got to be washed thoroughly.
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Post Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:12 am

David Glen wrote:Colin, you don't say what fluid you are using.
My view is that you are only likely to get milking on short term vinyls classed as semi-permanent removable such as 2-3 year term or exhibition grade.
They have a water based adhesive so fluid will dissolve it and cause pooling which can not be got rid of.
Fluid wise, washing up liquid is a definite no IMHO as there are too many additives plus colour again which will not dry clear.
You need to use a proprietary application fluid together with just permanent solvent based adhesive (generally 5 year vinyl onwards).
One more thing, that glass has got to be washed thoroughly.
Not just short term stuff David, Ritrama 400 series uses a water based adhesive and is a 5yr+ vinyl that can also suffer from adhesive whitening due to prolonged contact with water. I use this (and Mac 9800) for just about everything. Water does not disolve the adhesive, just makes it 'gummy' as it absorbs moisture. I does dry perfectly clear once all of the moisture is gone. However time scales will vary depending on its location.
A proprietary application fluid would not make a significant difference in end results if there is pooling compared to a properly prepared washing up solution (5 or 6 drips of cheap stuff, ie. just soap, per litre). A solvent adhesive will certainly improve the initial appearance - but the key is NOT to get pooling in the first place!

Dave
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Post Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:28 am

Hi Guys

Just thought I would let you know I did some windows with black over white text, did the black wet using Grafislip application fluid and Jac Serical 5yr vinyl and it came out perfect.

I have no idea what glue is on the Jac or what is in the app fluid but it worked.

Cheers

Warren
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Post Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:00 pm

Use a few drops of Johnson's Baby Shampoo in water as application fluid. Works a treat. I started using it when applying clear window safety film. No streaks or milky patches.
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Post Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:45 pm

Milky Streaks

Good evening all, i can second what Andy Fellows is saying about Johnson's Baby Shampoo. I was a fitter for 4yrs for a window film installer, still do it now. We used it all the time, didn't encounter any problems with streaking or milky pooling. In fact i havent used anything else since. I stilll think its to do with a water based adhesive rather than a solvent based adhesive.

In fact i can remember using a double sided mirrored film on a glass sign in Glasgow once where i had planned to apply the text to the rear of the glass and overlay with a colour. After applying the text on the first section i flipped the glass over to have a look only to find that the adhesive had gone milky, and that was it applied dry. Didn't look good at all, so i re-cut the text and applied it to the outside and overlayed the rear of the glass instead. it was going up high anyway.

I have an amusing story dedication to getting the job done attached to the sign, i think a post about unusal things we have all put ourselfs throgh to get a job done!
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Post Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:08 am

Hi all thanks for all the advice

In answer to one of the questions I suspected soap may have caused a problem so have done a sample with just water.

The problem with milky finish is only where the black is ridging over the cut text and so the water is pooling.

Update

I have just got in and checked my sample pieces applied on Saturday and they seem to have cleared !!

Bit difficult to tell exactly as applied to my patio doors and its dark outside Doh! Looked with a torch but will have to check tomorrow in daylight.

Colin
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Post Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:26 am

newbie here, how hard is the water in your area, if you live in a hard water area then the white stuff might be calcium!

All window cleaners these days use purewater ( RO water) for washing windows, so they dont get any streaks.

It was that the people from scotland had no problem applying wet, and the people from england had more probs. Scotland normally has soft water, and england normally has hard - very hard water

Just a thought.
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Post Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:35 pm

HI All,
I didnt read all the messages as was getting frustrated reading the first lot ,sorry if this has been dealt with by now, dont go mad spending money on a 10 year vinyl all you need is a solvent adhesive , water and solvent dont mix so want go milky when applied wet simple as that , water based adhesive will regardless of what life the vinyl has, also yes a full coverage of black on a south facing window will lead to a potential problem with the glass cracking caused by the heat being absorbed by the glass and distorting the glass.If its short term due to halloween should be ok.

Regards

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