my invisible text
Categories
  • TIMELINE

PC60 or PC600

<<

J. Hulme

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 618

Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 10:28 pm





Post Wed Apr 16, 2003 4:46 pm

PC60 or PC600

I presume this has been tackled before but I'm now in a right dilemma
I've been offered both, theres obviously a price difference,
both are said to be working OK.
(the 60 is factory checked etc)

Which one would you go for?
Would it be unwise to go for the 60
Its to do general graphics work, labels, signs, stickers,decals, vehicles not huge poster size stuff and not whole sides of vans etc.

Any help from people who have / used both, I obviously don't want to buy one and then decide I should have bought the other
It seems as soon as these come up they're sold so time is of the essence
and I may have to move fast
I much prefer the idea of print and cut all in one machine, rather than
a seperate plotter, this is why I'm considering these so seriously

Or should I forget them and just go for an edge
Any help at all is most appreciated


Cheers
<<

ruth

1 Star Contributor

Posts: 96

Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2002 9:24 pm





Post Wed Apr 16, 2003 5:23 pm

Hi,

I was faced with the same dilema not so long ago. Personally I plumped for the PC60. Reading on the boards it appears that some people find the PC60 more reliable than the PC600. As I don't have any work yet for the print side, I was reluctant to go for the expensive option. I figure that the machine must print & cut or it's nothing more than a poster printer so if I outgrow the PC60 then I'll invest some serious money in this emerging range of machines.

I do however have some questions for some of the bigger wiser digital printing bods out there.....
If I want a wide format machine that is capable of printing posters, vinyl, banners, translucent medium etc then I want inkjet right? If I get the right inkjet machine then I guess I can swap my ink wells/cartridges/bottles to select the most suitable ink for the medium in hand?

It would appear that lamination is often a good plan. I would need to laminate prior to cutting obviously... Then I need to load the laminated print into a plotter to cut out profile. I guess registration marks etc are used this then means that there is less value in the combined printer/plotter. This is how the edge works right? Sounds like a lot of piddling around to me?

Are we moving in the direction of printing medium and inks capable of serious application without lamination? I know Rob has his devious little tests to prove that prints need to be laminated but is it a matter of waiting a couple of years then I can get an all singing, all dancing machine that does everything I want and more for a humble 5 grand?

Soon I will actually try to print something on my PC60 then I guess I'll be back on the boards with more questions.

Sorry for the rambling and thanks in advance for your help
Ramjam
<<

Phill Fenton

User avatar

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 11084

Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2002 11:04 pm





Post Wed Apr 16, 2003 5:52 pm

The PC600 should have slightly lower runnning costs due to it's print ribbon saving mode. These machines do have high running costs which is their main drawback, and reliabilty is an issue.

As far as reliability is concerned I don't really know if the PC60 is more reliable than the PC600. I've had my PC600 for 18 months and have had to replace the head once. However, I do think the reliability is mainly down to cleanliness. House the machine in a dust free environment, always cover it when not in use. Always clean the vinyl using Iso propyl Alcohol just before printing. And don't forget to replace the head cleaning strip on a regular basis (it's easy to forget about).

Personally I would go for the PC600 as it's a newer machine. But ask around first and try to establish whether or not the PC60 is more reliable.
<<

J. Hulme

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 618

Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 10:28 pm





Post Wed Apr 16, 2003 6:05 pm

Cheers Phill

Are the images good though for the work I listed in the first post,
I've never seen any output from either, the images need not be huge
things, but just everyday (if there is such a thing) signage, some very small as in labels and the like, to around 610mm Sq and below
<<

Martin Pearson

User avatar

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 8338

Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2002 1:00 am





Post Wed Apr 16, 2003 6:40 pm

I dont own either machine so can only go on what I have read and been told.
The PC600 is the upgraded PC60 so it should be a better machine, it prints up to a higher resolution than the PC60, is faster than the PC60 and as Phill says has a ribbon saving mode so should be cheaper to run.
However if you read posts on this and other boards you see far more complaints about the PC600 than the PC60, mainly problems about the head and how long it lasts. The head is anexpensive item to replace so the PC600 might not be the best option.
Then there is the difference in price to consider, is the PC60 much cheaper than the PC600 ?
As Phill says the PC600 is the better of the two machines and he owns one so it might be worth listening to what he says, as I have already said I dont own a printer so I can only tell you what I have read and been told.
<<

Phill Fenton

User avatar

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 11084

Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2002 11:04 pm





Post Wed Apr 16, 2003 6:50 pm

A slight amount of banding is always visible with these machines. This is caused by a slight overlap of the printhead on each pass. If you laminate the printed sign using a clear vinyl, it becomes virtually undetectable (This should not to be confused with a series of lines on the print - this is what happens when the head goes which produces unacceptable output).

On small labels and decals (which you wouldn't want to laminate) banding is not really an issue. If you PM me with your mail address I'll send you some samples from my own machine for you to see for yourself how they look.

Overall, it's a good machine that will make your business money.

Reliability and banding are well know issues with this machine - but they're pretty inexpensive and I believe good value for the signmaker that wants to offer some printed signs and labels along with normal vinyl work.

It's also a cutter which is a bonus. However, If you intend to offer mainly printed work then go for something better with lower running costs. But as an adjunct to an existing vinyl business it's ideal.
<<

Martin Pearson

User avatar

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 8338

Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2002 1:00 am





Post Wed Apr 16, 2003 6:56 pm

Ramjam, as far as large format machines go its not quite that simple, there is not a machine on the market that will do everything that you want it to.
You are right in a way when you say that inkjet is the way to go but the machines that are being quoted as 3 years outdoor without lamination are solvent ink printers. They can only use a solvent based ink so you cant change them over to suit other substrates.
The other form of inkjet printers use either a dye based ink or a pigmented ink. The inks for these machines can be switched to suit different substrates but the prints are nowhere near as UV stable as the solvent inks and without lamination are only really suitable for short term outdoor use.
Inkjet printers print using CMYk so you need to print onto a white substrate to ensure you get the right colours. You cant print white so if you had a job on a coloured substrate you could not prime the substrate prior to printing.
The edge and similar printers are thermal resin printers this is yet another way of printing, one of the advantages of these machines is that they will print white so substrates can be primed prior to printing.
If I were you I would start collecting brochures from different manufactures and reading about the pros and cons of each type of printer. I think the most important factor is what you will use the machine for the majority of the time and then make a choice based on that.
Its a minefield so good luck !!!!!!
<<

Graham Scanlan

Trade Supplier
Trade Supplier

Posts: 131

Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2002 1:00 am





Post Wed Apr 16, 2003 7:13 pm

good luck with the banding :P

good luck :P
<<

Jon Aston

Trade Supplier
Trade Supplier

Posts: 92

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2002 1:51 am





Post Wed Apr 16, 2003 7:54 pm

As this is first and foremost a post concerning ROLAND thermal inkjets, I will not go on about a certain OTHER well-known manufacturer's thermal transfer printer, out of respect for the rules of the site.

However, I think it fair (and within the rules) to suggest that you do your homework before deciding on either of the machines you're considering.

As a pretty reliable rule of thumb: the lower the capital cost of the equipment, the higher the cost of operation. Materials for those ROLAND machines (and your printing costs per square foot) are considerably higher...which results in poor return on investment. Integrated cutters just add to the dillemna by slowing (already slower) throughput and job turn-around.

Where wide format inkjets are concerned, have a good look at the Gerber Jetster. You will find that it satisfies pretty much all of the criteria you listed. Prints are outdoor-durable for up to three years without lamination for most signage applictions...but overlamination is required for applications requiring abrasion resistance. Print quality is SUPERB and suitable for indoor, close-in viewing applications, in addition to outdoor.

Perhaps the best part: You can be up and printing for profit within just a few hours!

Good luck!
<<

Fat Bob

User avatar

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 302

Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2002 2:41 pm





Post Wed Apr 16, 2003 8:13 pm

Hi Guys

The point of digital print is to enhance what most of you already do and earn a living at some of us quite merily beaver away and never even get ask to produce anything digi. and to spend what amounts to around 14 k
for a serious machine then another few thousand on a laminator without
having serious work for it to do is the road to finacial suicide.

Now take some of the big companys in this country who have been out and done 300k or more on a big mother of a machine and are in the same position on a much larger scale. and you have the making of an ideal opertunity for YOU.

There are plenty of firms who can offer you prices of around £12- 16 a square mtr. of full colour printed on to lots of different materials and either
uv varnished for a few bob more in the right climate this sells at around the £90 mark so why waste your cash forking out silly money on a machine then get kicked between the legs on a maintence contract when you can.....Buy it in.

The Only Draw back is finding a printer that tells you the truth about lead times and knows how to print on thier machine as to give you constant results....That apart the rest is a piece of cake.
<<

Fat Bob

User avatar

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 302

Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2002 2:41 pm





Post Wed Apr 16, 2003 8:22 pm

Hi Guys

The point of digital print is to enhance what most of you already do and earn a living at, some of us quite merily beaver away and never even get ask to produce anything digi. and to spend what amounts to around 14 k
for a serious machine then another few thousand on a laminator without
having serious work for it to do is the road to finacial suicide.

Now take some of the big companys in this country who have been out and done 300k or more on a big mother of a machine and are in the same position on a much larger scale. and you have the making of an ideal opertunity for YOU.

There are plenty of firms who can offer you prices of around £12- 16 a square mtr. of full colour printed on to lots of different materials and either
uv varnished for a few bob more in the right climate this sells at around the £90 mark so why waste your cash forking out silly money on a machine then get kicked between the legs on a maintence contract when you can.....Buy it in.

The Only Draw back is finding a printer that tells you the truth about lead times and knows how to print on thier machine as to give you constant results....That apart the rest is a piece of cake.
<<

Jon Aston

Trade Supplier
Trade Supplier

Posts: 92

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2002 1:51 am





Post Wed Apr 16, 2003 8:33 pm

Assuming that you can find a dependable, trustworthy printer who can produce consistent results on his equipment...outsourcing is risk free.

In my experience, companies who depend on outsourcing wide format aren't particularly motivated to sell it. As soon as they invest, they are highly motivated -- and many see very good growth in revenue.

If you outsource for an extended period of time, and adopt the technology too late, you don't ever see anywhere near the same profit margins, either.

If you don't have the stomach for taking risks, outsourcing is better than nothing...but the returns don't stack up.
<<

Phill Fenton

User avatar

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 11084

Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2002 11:04 pm





Post Wed Apr 16, 2003 8:45 pm

I'll bet you're really confused now :lol: :lol: :cry:

I've just realised how to make millions. All I need do is to sell a printer with the following specifications:-

Wide format high speed Thermal Transfer printer and intergrated cutter. Exceptionaly durable and reliable, with a selling price of under £6000. Running costs under £8 per sq.metre fulll colour.

Now all I gotta do is design, build, mass produce, market and sell the Mother!!

Pretty soon I'll be rich :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :cool: :wink:
<<

Henry Barker

User avatar

4 Star Contributor

Posts: 476

Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 9:01 pm





Post Thu Apr 17, 2003 7:47 am

Hi there!

You said should I forget both and go for an Edge....I think that's the best advice you could give yourself.


There are plenty of people who have bought Rolands and then moved over to an Edge. Although both are thermal printers I don't think you can compare them like for like, the Edge is way ahead.

I never thought I would enter the digital market, and I did as FB suggested and bought in services from a company that ran 3 Edges and sold mainly to the trade.

I don't have a shedload of work for it but it ticks over pays its way and adds more to what we can offer.

You seemed to have been offered an Edge at a good price which Edge 1 was it, was it a Trunnion? Did it have a hump on the top, cooling fan above the printhead?

You could buy that, get an old Sprint lettering machine cheap to contour cut, thats what we have, as thats what I ran together with an S750 plotter, before buying our Summa T series with OPOS.

That set up works on its own and our main plotter does all the other shop work.

If you know what your market is and are convinced you can get a good return on your investment, then go for an Edge you wont be sorry. Roland...I have never owned one, Ask Adrian at Signrite he has had both, Ask Glenn Taylor at edgetalk.com, or letterhead.com he will glady put you right he has had both.

Good luck with whatever you buy
<<

Carrie Brown

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 4643

Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2003 12:10 pm





Post Thu Apr 17, 2003 9:34 am

We have a PC600, have had it for almost a year now. Touch wood, have had no problems as yet and have not had to replace anything. We equally use the cutter and printing option, both are being put to regular use. Im glad we invested in a machine that can print aswell as cut.

But everyone is different, read up & make, what you feel is the best decision for you and for the work that you want to be doing.

The nec sign show is at the end of May, we went last year and inspected the machines on show, asked lots of questions, took all the literature available and then made our final decision. :D
<<

ruth

1 Star Contributor

Posts: 96

Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2002 9:24 pm





Post Thu Apr 17, 2003 2:28 pm

Thanks everyone, I'm glad we got that one straight !
<<

Jodie

1 Star Contributor

Posts: 57

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 1:00 am





Post Thu Apr 17, 2003 7:19 pm

Well ! I think I agree with Fat Bob on this one, farm it out unless youve nocked back 10-12 printing jobs in the last month. Has anyone read the article in this months SignCraft mag ? basicaly it reckons that you should focus on what your good at, and not try and take on too many different things ? I now nothing about printing digital or otherwise and it must be a steep learning curve compared to using straight vinyl ? I can airbrush a little but thats as much as I think I will venture into printing. Brian :P
<<

Kevin.Beck

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 1024

Joined: Thu Nov 28, 2002 8:48 pm





Post Thu Apr 17, 2003 7:59 pm

There are 2 basic ways of thinking in business.

1. Stick to what you know, don`t divert and hope that you`ll get enough orders of that 1 thing to keep you going.

2. Diverse, and try your hand at almost anything.

This is what we do.. We screen print and embroider garments, promotional items and most aspects of signs/graphics.

When 1 sector is slack, the others pull us through.
When all are bussy, we`re quids in.

Trying something new is scary. Can you remember when you all were thinking about starting a sign business. My first cutter and software wiped me out. But I saw it as an investment. I didn`t have a ready made customer base, but I built one up.

I believe we have to invest in our business to keep it alive, infront and competitive.
<<

Kevin Flowers

User avatar

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 3218

Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2003 11:30 am

Country: United Kingdom (uk)




Post Thu Apr 17, 2003 9:14 pm

Hi everyone
if you don't try something in the first place how will you ever know if you are any good at it. [i](thats what i keep telling the wife anyway) :-?

KTF
<<

Donnie

L-Gold Member
L-Gold Member

Posts: 22

Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2002 6:11 pm





Post Sat Apr 19, 2003 3:12 am

I have been looking into the new solvent ink printers
Greeat outdoor durability, wide printing and print cut options at the same
price as an edge,
Any veiws on this?
<<

Jon Aston

Trade Supplier
Trade Supplier

Posts: 92

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2002 1:51 am





Post Sat Apr 19, 2003 5:32 am

Donnie:

There is a "helluva lot" of snake-oil and fu-fu-dust being sold with wide format inkjets these days...which machines are you considering?
<<

Donnie

L-Gold Member
L-Gold Member

Posts: 22

Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2002 6:11 pm





Post Sat Apr 19, 2003 9:57 pm

I'm Looking at Rolands Sol-jet
Any input would be greatly appriciated.
<<

Jon Aston

Trade Supplier
Trade Supplier

Posts: 92

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2002 1:51 am





Post Mon Apr 21, 2003 3:46 pm

Donnie:

"Eco-solvent" inkjet printers are an excellent choice for your first foray into wide-format digital sign printing. Be sure to check out the Gerber Jetster ("Spandex Jetster in Europe) as well.
<<

WP_Graphics

User avatar

4 Star Contributor

Posts: 330

Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 10:23 pm





Post Mon Apr 21, 2003 4:13 pm

PC600

Outline,

Which one did you end up going for?

I have a PC600 and have had it for over a year now and TBH, it has been pretty damn reliable. I bought it ex-demo just over a year ago and the only problem I had with it was building up static electricity due to being so close to my computer. I moved it away about 1 foot and it has been problem free for ages!

A very good machine

Gavin
<<

J. Hulme

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 618

Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 10:28 pm





Post Mon Apr 21, 2003 5:29 pm

Hi Gavin, not bought any yet,
I still fancy the edge 1, not too sure which model / age it is though.
The PC600 I maybe buying this week is more expensive and I don't suppose my version of e6 won't run it without more money chucking at it for modules.
The PC60 I also have lined up is alot cheaper and then I could upgrade my signlab but I 'd compromise the dpi and ribbon saver function of the 600.
Which software do you use with yours?
Does coreldraw or similar give good results with the Rolands?
Whatever, It has to be capable of small labels etc and vehicle livery to
fancy A-boards and fascias

Hopefully I'll be fixed up this week, and then all I'll be posting is questions like '' How do you use this thing'' :P

cheers
<<

James White

2 Star Contributor

Posts: 125

Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2002 8:09 pm





Post Mon Apr 21, 2003 7:07 pm

Outline

We use a Roland PC60 to print/cut labels for our rosette business 1000's of them through Corel Draw 8.No problems at all.


James
<<

Kevin.Beck

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 1024

Joined: Thu Nov 28, 2002 8:48 pm





Post Mon Apr 21, 2003 7:09 pm

surely the person selling you the machine will show you how to use it!!!
<<

Graham Scanlan

Trade Supplier
Trade Supplier

Posts: 131

Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2002 1:00 am





Post Mon Apr 21, 2003 7:16 pm

largest size print

just a quick one,

since there seems to be a lot of interest in this post,

whats the largest print area you have acheived with your

roland or edge,

and still been able to keep the customer happy?
<<

Robert Lambie

User avatar

*****
*****

Posts: 27255

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2001 1:00 am

Country: United Kingdom (uk)




Post Mon Apr 21, 2003 8:05 pm

Hi moon
i dragged this from an older post i did..
i did this on my pc60 about 8 months ago maybe more..

cost was £280+vat customer took two as far as i can remember.
the print was mounted on foamex and then cut round to free stand at an exhibition for jcb's and the like.

Image

the machine our company has was the very first PC60 in the country. it was actualy the demo one Roland UK received and had to hand it over when they got it as we had paid in full months before.. That had to be at least 5 years ago or more..
other than a few heads the machine keeps going.. no probs. (touch wood) :-?


roland support is crap but the machines... well... i cant complain!
<<

Phill Fenton

User avatar

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 11084

Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2002 11:04 pm





Post Mon Apr 21, 2003 11:15 pm

My main concern about the Colorcamms are the high costs of cartridges or ribbons. This makes it difficult to sell large graphics even though the machine is capable of producing them. Personally I am reluctant to attempt to print anything too big on this machine because if it goes wrong you can waste an awful lot of ribbon. This must be the machines major drawback - forget about talk of head failures and banding, the biggest drawback is it's high running costs. If you intend to stick to fairly small graphics or spot colours it isn't such a problem, but if you are hoping to produce large full colour prints on a regular basis then you need to go for something with lower running costs. Replacement ribbons will lower your costs substantially - but it's still an expensive machine to run in comparison to the Edge. However, it's lower purchase price means that you will recoup your initial investment quicker.

Having said that - I often use the colorcamm to print signs using spot colours that I would in the past have made up using vinyl. It's simply much quicker - and for small signs relatively inexpensive.

Horses for courses as the saying goes!
<<

J. Hulme

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 618

Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 10:28 pm





Post Mon Apr 21, 2003 11:27 pm

Hi Robert,


If the machine I buy produces output as good as that
then I'll be more than happy.
<<

Robert Lambie

User avatar

*****
*****

Posts: 27255

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2001 1:00 am

Country: United Kingdom (uk)




Post Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:27 am

forget about talk of head failures and banding, the biggest drawback is it's high running costs.


this is, in my veiw the whole problem with the pc60-pc600

when we buy a vinyl cutter we rig it up and away it goes.. nothing much to learn. it starts making money from word go. if it cuts faulty we moan a little dur to waste, but it is minimal.

the printing business is a whole new ball game. loads to learn. lots of mistakes to be made. these mistakes cost much more in hard cash..
i think the real reason why the pc's get the slaggings is people that initialy buy them think its just gonna be like a cutter.
they have a fair bit of money caught up in them and want to get a return.
they hit printing problems one after another because they are new to it... and simply blame the machine. when they do hit the snags that the machine is guilty for it simply puts the nail in the coffin..
the banding or the heads going... i sympathise with them.
the machine is more than capable of running big jobs, but like phil said if you try a big print like the one i showed and if it fails you loss a fair bit.. if not./. you get a good return.. no easy road to it.

there is loads of posts on this site covering edge and pc60-600 tons on other sites.. i dont think you get a good one and the guy next door gets a bad one. i think its more down to you using it proper.. not saying the machine is perfect. its not. its far from it actualy.. but used right & learned properly it can and does get a fairly decent return.
<<

Jon Aston

Trade Supplier
Trade Supplier

Posts: 92

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2002 1:51 am





Post Tue Apr 22, 2003 2:41 pm

Phill:

This perception is that the lower price point speeds return on investment is common...but is (in all but VERY rare cases) totally inaccurate.

If ColorCAMM users would go to the trouble of analysing their numbers, the majority would find that by the time they've obtained ROI, they could have purchased a Gerber EDGE with the money they would have saved on materials, alone. :o

Robert:

I'm fond of saying "You don't get what you don't pay for"...

The problems associated with ColorCamms are numerous and well documented and I think you're letting Roland and their dealers off far too lightly by suggesting that this is "just the way things are with digital printing" or (as some defenders of Roland suggest) that this is somehow the user's fault (for being too "dim").

When you purchase a piece of "kit" (am I catching on, or what?!?!) training and support should be considered to be an integral part of the system purchase. They play a critically important roll in helping you obtain ROI faster.

...So too does all of the software/firmware/hardware/materials and compatibility related product development that a certain, other manufacturer's "Matched Technology System"...by providing the operator with relatively trouble free operation and reliable, consistant output and performance. I can't think of a better way that a manufacturer could facilitate faster return on investment.

My advice to anyone who cares to listen: don't just buy a printer...invest in a system!
<<

Phill Fenton

User avatar

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 11084

Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2002 11:04 pm





Post Tue Apr 22, 2003 7:01 pm

I have to disagree with your argument there Jon.

I usually sell my printed work at 4 or 5 times the materials cost to me to produce a print.

Assuming a new Colorcamm costs £6000 (there is no need to buy any new software as it will run from the majority of sign software in common use simply by using the windows print manager). I would therefore have spent between say £2000 - £1500 in consumables by the time I have reached my "ROI". This is not enough to have paid for an edge system and associated cutter.

I'm neither an advocate of the colorcamm nor a detractor - I'm simply stating my experience of this machine. It can and does make my business money.

If I was to go into digital printing in a big way I would be looking for a system that had low running costs and a wide format print. Because of this The new Summagraphics DC3 seems like a good machine worthy of further investigation. Likewise, the Graffityp printer mentioned in another forum here recently also seems to fit the bill. Both are thermal transfer machines which I would prefer above a solvent inkjet for a number of reasons. (Much cleaner operation, and instant startup and shutdown).

This is not to say that I wouldn't also consider the edge - because I would, but I'm not convinced it's the ideal machine.

As I said earlier - horses for courses , different machines have different strengths (and weaknesses) - and anyone looking at buying such a machine should consider all the options to make an informed decision that best suits their own individual business needs, and try to ignore some of the "hype" that goes on
<<

Jon Aston

Trade Supplier
Trade Supplier

Posts: 92

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2002 1:51 am





Post Tue Apr 22, 2003 7:15 pm

Phill:

I never said you can't make money with a ColorCamm...but how much more gross profit would you have made on those very same jobs using significantly lower cost materials; still selling at the same prices?

If you're commanding 4-5 times materials costs, you are also pretty adept at Sales, I imagine. The Gerber EDGE would have given you the capacity to sell those very same, existing clients a wider variety of products. Call it "hype" if you like, but these are facts.

I happen to agree with you re wide format thermal transfer being an excellent alternative to inkjet.

If you don't mind a bit of your own (excellent) advice: don't rule out the Gerber MAXX2 before you fully understand it's features and benefits. I'm not familiar with the Graphitype machine, but I can tell you that the DC3 has a number of limitations as compared to MAXX2.
<<

Phill Fenton

User avatar

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 11084

Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2002 11:04 pm





Post Tue Apr 22, 2003 7:42 pm

I agree with you that the edge is capable of producing work that the colorcamm can't (at least not cost effectively anyway). Large printed areas for vehicles and signs are a good example. I wouldn't dream of covering a large vehicle with printed graphics produced on a colorcamm - it would be far too expensive to produce - but it can be done cost effectively with the Edge. When choosing a machine to buy, It's important for the buyer to consider very carefully what he or she will be using the machine for. There's no point in buying a Ferrari if you're offering a taxi service. Likewise, don't buy a Trabant if you're planning to go racing.

Thanks for pointing out the Maxx2 Jon. I certainly would not rule this out - I think all of the machines available on the market should be considered
<<
User avatar

3 Star Contributor

Posts: 234

Joined: Thu May 16, 2002 1:16 pm





Post Tue Apr 22, 2003 8:06 pm

Jon,

Please do tell!

What limitations does the DC3 machine have when compared to the MAXX2? One person’s limitations is another’s none issue. Case in point: the Edge (or the deuce for that matter). Others view the fact that the machine is a print only solution to be a “limitation”. I don’t share that view in the slightest, who’s right, who’s wrong (?)

Each machine has a targeted audience and environment in the marketplace. As Phill points out in his last post, use the proper tool for the job. I love my sledge hammer but find it a bit awkward when trying to do finishing work. When using it in that setting, I say the sledge hammer has some “limitations”. But does it really??? :wink:

Just like last week over at the edgetalk forum when I recommended someone perform a certain output using a ColorCAMM device instead of the Edge. No way was the Edge the best device for that particular job. Was that job a “limitation” of the Edge, or just out of range for the intended scope of the machine? Or both? Or neither?

(By the way, keep that ColorCAMM recommendation I made between you and me. Don’t want Phill, Robert, or Andy catching wind of it, I’ll never live it down. :o )
<<

WP_Graphics

User avatar

4 Star Contributor

Posts: 330

Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2002 10:23 pm





Post Tue Apr 22, 2003 11:35 pm

Disagree

I Disagree Jon,

The Colourcamm is a machine that you can leave to perform CMYK printing and let it cut precisely! I had a job for a customer to make 28 wheel images printed onto white vinyl that were 280mm in diamether with the words "PF Alloy's" printed on one of the spokes. I set my resolution to 1200dpi (which is something the edge 1 can only perform to 300dpi :roll: ), layed out the design in corel draw 6 wheels to a page, drew my cutline, set the printer to advance after each page, cut the page then contiue onto the next page. This was done CMY three colour process so I loaded 2 of each cartridge into the machine hit print and away I went to deliver some goods. When I came back there was 5 sheets lying on the floor with 6 wheels to a page printed perfectly.

This is something that edge users cannot do. They are very manual and if you base you're time on £20 - £25+VAT an hour that's a lot of time sitting watching/changing a machine.

Pro's and con's in both arguments...

Gav
<<

Henry Barker

User avatar

4 Star Contributor

Posts: 476

Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 9:01 pm





Post Wed Apr 23, 2003 7:52 am

What is the outdoor durability of the Colorcamm I believe its UP TO 3 years, whereas I believe the Edge is guaranteed 3-5 years using Gerber foils and Edge ready materials.

Gav is right in that you may have to nurse it abit more with CMYK but I often leave it to print many many metres of spot colour on its own.

Scotchprint on trucks is usually 75dpi, for most work I think 300dpi is OK, set the lpi up right in the Edge and you get good results.

WE all have our preferences, I was lucky in that I have had Gerber software, and plotters here for over 10 years so adding an Edge was a logical step.

Outline go and look at both makes working, I don't think you can compare an Edge and ColorCamm, because thats like comparing apples and pears, they are not in the same league, but you can see what would suit you and your needs and your market.

My advice would still be to go for an Edge, I think you will not regret it but you might if you buy a Roland.

When I got into sandblasting I bought a small pressure pot and thought I could economise by using the workshop compressor (5.5hp), but realised after a very short time that this was false economy, the workshop machine was working flat out with no capacity for an air fed helmet, and the small pot was very slow.

We bought a new industrial set up, which was like day and night with a large trailer mounted diesel compressor and filters and air hood, I have never regretted it just the money wasted in getting there.

Check out your finances, I know its tempting cutter/printer in one, but I thought you went to look at a cheaper Edge, and am sure you could get a cheap Gerber Sprint or something similar to contour cut, and you have E6.

Good luck whichever way you go, I am sure you willl get lots of help here, whichever you buy, let us know how you get on.
<<

Jon Aston

Trade Supplier
Trade Supplier

Posts: 92

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2002 1:51 am





Post Wed Apr 23, 2003 1:45 pm

Gents:

I don't believe I've ever suggested that the Gerber EDGE is the best solution for every job that everyone will land. The point is that the EDGE is (by far and away) the best solution on the whole. No, it won't print at 1200 DPI...nor will it make your coffee for you in the morning...but it is FAR more versatile, FAR more productive, FAR more reliable and FAR more cost effective than ColorCAMMs are day-in and day-out. This all adds up to make the Gerber EDGE a far better investment.

This is not hype, nor merely my opinion...ask ANYONE who has owned both machines.

(If you own a ColorCAMM and find my opinion annoying, I'm sorry...truly.)

If necessary, we can get into the whole DC3 vs the MAXX2 debate...but I don't have time at the moment.

Suffice it to say that there are indeed pro's and con's with every machine. If you are planning an equipment purchase, find out what these are and develop an understanding of how they will affect return on investment (ROI). Choose the system that will give you the best opportunities for ROI and you will NEVER go wrong.
<<

Jon Aston

Trade Supplier
Trade Supplier

Posts: 92

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2002 1:51 am





Post Wed Apr 23, 2003 1:45 pm

Gents:

I don't believe I've ever suggested that the Gerber EDGE is the best solution for every job that everyone will land. The point is that the EDGE is (by far and away) the best solution on the whole. No, it won't print at 1200 DPI...nor will it make your coffee for you in the morning...but it is FAR more versatile, FAR more productive, FAR more reliable and FAR more cost effective than ColorCAMMs are day-in and day-out. This all adds up to make the Gerber EDGE a far better investment.

This is not hype, nor merely my opinion...ask ANYONE who has owned both machines.

(If you own a ColorCAMM and find my opinion annoying, I'm sorry...truly.)

If necessary, we can get into the whole DC3 vs the MAXX2 debate...but I don't have time at the moment.

Suffice it to say that there are indeed pro's and con's with every machine. If you are planning an equipment purchase, find out what these are and develop an understanding of how they will affect return on investment (ROI). Choose the system that will give you the best opportunities for ROI and you will NEVER go wrong.

Return to Roland Printers



Who is online

Registered users:
Graeme Dingwall, Marko

cron

 

About
Contact
Board Rules
Membership
Terms & Conditions

 

Signapp - iPhone & iPad
Signapp - Android
Vehicle Wrap Training
Vinyl Application Training
Vehicle Wrap Accreditation
UK Sign Group
Site Membership
Advertising
Videos
British Signs & Graphics Assoc.

 

 Facebook
 Twitter
 Youtube
 Linkedin

 

Who is Online

In total there are 57 users online ::
3 registered, 0 hidden and 54 guests
[based on past 5 minutes]

Most users ever online was
370 on Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:02 pm

Registered users:
Graeme Dingwall, Marko

Copyright © 2000 - 2019 Robert Lambie