my invisible text
Categories
  • TIMELINE

Hands up who's a cowboy?

<<

Posts: 2

Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:13 pm





Post Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:10 am

Hands up who's a cowboy?

Hi all,

Hand's up who are cowboys in the world of sign making, I'm constantly getting fed up with the amount of crap sign makers coming into the trade, they got no experiance about materials and slap any old (oh i swore !) that they can their hands on onto customers signs.

Who do you rate as a cowboy? (1) Someone who works from a garage and uses top quality materials, (2) or someone that has a nice unit and has to scrimp on materials to make a buck?

You comments please?

Kind Regards
Steve
<<

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 618

Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 10:28 pm





Post Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:18 am

None, customers get what they pay for, if its the difference in price between foam or dibond the customers nearly always go for foam, even though I try and convince against it, they see their signage as expensive but wouldn't hesitate to spend more on a pair of trainers/mobile phone/mp3 player etc etc.
<<

Posts: 2

Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:13 pm





Post Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:35 am

I wasnt on about the substrate, more the quality of the vinyl, eg: putting monomeric vinyl on vans where everyone knows that it wont do, i know plenty of sign makers that would do this
<<

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 575

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 2:41 am





Post Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:59 am

I'm gonna rename my garage "The OK Corall" :D
<<

User avatar

L-Gold Member
L-Gold Member

Posts: 7027

Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:02 pm





Post Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:37 am

now are you going to whistle dixsey or go for your pistols.

clint signs in the wild westcountry

thats why its called mono fit it once never see your customer again
<<

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 2752

Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 4:39 pm

Country: United Kingdom (uk)




Post Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:41 am

cowboys

welcome to my garage http ://www.thehighchaparral.com/
i dont have a name for my loft yet or the dining room but ime working on it i will post back around high noon
<<

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 14363

Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:36 pm





Post Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:46 am

A cowboy charges extortionate prices for low quality materials and workmanship,
Cheap and cheerful is fine, but cheap and quality seldom go together.
HI HO Silver.....Away...
<<

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 11423

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:22 pm





Post Sun Apr 03, 2005 1:28 pm

Aztec, this was discussed at considerable length here https://www.uksignboards.com/viewtopic.p ... highlight=

cheers
<<

User avatar

*****
*****

Posts: 27234

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2001 1:00 am

Country: United Kingdom (uk)




Post Sun Apr 03, 2005 1:36 pm

in my opinion...
a cowboy is NOT someone that works from home or from their garage.
we need to start somewhere and if this is a way to help deal with your ongoing business costs until you feel established enough to take on the extra overheads then thats fine by me. i know many folk that work from home and make excellent "quality" signs, but i also know sign companies that work from factory units employ 5 staff or more and churn out crap!

a cowboy? well, to me they....

are the people that dont give a toss on any sort of price structure. just take what they can get "at any cost" to win a sale.

are the ones you find in the pub at 3pm yacking about how good a day that had because they just lettered some car sales forecourt vehicle windscreens in stretched comic sans font, covered in bubbles and creases, using cheap vinyl and made £60 cash profit for about 5 cars.

the type that push only foamex or even correx for shop fascias (no trims) because its cheaper for them to buy! only for it to buckle and distort under direct sunlight.

they think fonts with a built in shadow the same colour as the letter as "classy".

no matter what script font they use they use ALL caps

they dont care about how a design looks, just as long as the customer will accept it.

they dont care about learning how to "better" their work, only on how to make more sales, not neccessarily money!

im sure i could on and on but ill let some others add to it :wink:
<<

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 8053

Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:22 am





Post Sun Apr 03, 2005 1:36 pm

I am not a cowboy.
I am a signpainter.
I own a house on commercial property.
I work out of my garage.
I too loathe the quickie-stickies.
Customers seem to love 'em, unfortunately.

To me, a cowboy is (usually female too!)
someone whose hubby buys a system on Ebay,
she cuts Calvin Peeing stickers on her dinette set
in the trailer while listening to the Dixie Chicks,
then goes to the local fair/flea market
wearing Daisy Dukes with a camel toe &
sells this crap to the over-eager public.

She has stickers plastered over her primer-covered Ford Pinto,
advertising magnetics for $29.95 and 4x8s for $75.
Most of her stuff is made from coroplast.
Her alphabets consist of Hellvetica, Comic Sans,
and Old English & Brush Script which are all caps.

She has a distortion module and she's not afraid to use it.
She stocks red, white, and black calendered vinyl.
Most of her money is spent at the tanning place,
because her hubby has a real job at the factory.
She thinks Mike Stevens was a talk show host.
She wouldn't know a good sign if it bit her in the ass.

Just my 2¢!
Love....Jill
<<

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 11423

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:22 pm





Post Sun Apr 03, 2005 1:45 pm

:o Jill, I wouldn't mind betting you have modelled that comment after a real life 'cowboy/girl' that you know.....
<<

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 1052

Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2002 10:56 am





Post Sun Apr 03, 2005 2:04 pm

Doh..... :oops: :shoot3: yeha

Dead eye Si
<<

User avatar

2 Star Contributor

Posts: 165

Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 8:00 pm





Post Sun Apr 03, 2005 2:15 pm

All this talk of cowboys reminds me of my Ex-so called- Boss. But there will always be some customers who want any old graphic and be happy with it. I suppose it keeps all the boy racers knocking at the door. :D
<<

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 8053

Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:22 am





Post Sun Apr 03, 2005 2:16 pm

Indeed Shane.
She stopped by one day,
reeking of good perfume over dirty skin,
wanting to "borrow" my sign program CD.
AS IF!
There is another chick, Daddy bought her plotter.
It's taken her 2 YEARS to figger it out.
She's ok tho, sends customers my way.
She's usually too busy chasing her kids to make "signs".
Love....Jill
<<

User avatar

Trade Supplier
Trade Supplier

Posts: 434

Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:56 pm

Country: United Kingdom (uk)




Post Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:21 pm

Hand's up who are cowboys in the world of sign making, I'm constantly getting fed up with the amount of crap sign makers coming into the trade, they got no experiance about materials and slap any old (oh i swore !) that they can their hands on onto customers signs.



Hi

This is not just new companys who do this though. I wont say who the company was, as they are very large!

We had to correct a sign that had fallen apart, the thickness of materials used was too thin, the fixings used were 1/2 brackets, worse was they were not plated, so had rusted. This caused the letters to fall off the wall.

The sign was for a major hotel chain, so not even a one off!

To say that someone is a cowboy being new to the trade, is not always fair. To say the sign is no good just because we dont like it, is also not fair. Maybe if thier client was not happy, i would agree, but everyone has to start and learn somewhere.

I have been around the trade for a while, yet i have learned so much from these boards that i did not know. I only hope i can pass on my technical experience to others, which will help them out, even if they have been around for a while, we dont all know everything.

Im not being negative to your response, but feel that you may have been a little harsh.

Vince

(hot) (hot) (hot)

ps vince is an alias for Yul Brynner lol

(:) (:) (:)
<<

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 1966

Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 12:54 am





Post Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:55 pm

My favourite subject this so I shall say it all by saying nothing!

My tongue is firmly clenched between my teeth and hurts like hell! :yikes: :banghead: :sigh: :noeveil:
<<

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 1052

Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2002 10:56 am





Post Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:09 pm

I wonder which company that could be???

Simon
<<

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 3889

Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 7:44 pm





Post Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:15 pm

I know of well set up companies who turn out rubbish, and I know of one-man-bands, running from home who make top quality signage. And vice versa.

I see poor sign work every day. It seems some people have no idea or just don't care. I wouldn't get upset about it though; these 'cowboys' will be paving driveways next year.

While on the subject of quality, as far as I'm concerned some of the best made signs are made by small outfits who are able to put more time and effort into one offs. I've seen plenty of big retail stores with signs that are fading or falling to pieces after 6 months and these are made by the bigger sign co's.
Last edited by Andy Gorman on Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
<<

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 8053

Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:22 am





Post Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:16 pm

Point taken.
I have had my designs copied & stolen by both cowboys and old hands.
Signed...
Used & Abused in Butler, PA
<<

User avatar

Trade Supplier
Trade Supplier

Posts: 434

Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:56 pm

Country: United Kingdom (uk)




Post Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:42 am

I wonder which company that could be???



I would rather not say!!! They are very big though.

My experience is that, some of the larger companys do try at times to cut as many corners as they can, and to make signs as cheap as they can. Yet we can only dream of the resources they have!

I doubt this is unique to just our industry though.

Vince

:o
<<

User avatar

L-Gold Member
L-Gold Member

Posts: 468

Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 2:10 pm





Post Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:55 am

Having just entered into this industry(very slowley too) I find myself looking at every peice of signage around.

Two things come to mind following personal observations,

1. There is some absolutly fantastic/blinding/creative/beautiful/innovative work out there.

2. There is some complete cr@p out there.

Now I know sometimes customers will tell you what they want and that is exactly what they want but sometimes just changing the font would make all the differance.

Example, there is a company near me called shift force, the problem is that all their signs and vans have the name on them but due to a comic type and close spaced font being used, the f in shift kind of disappears!!!

Lee
<<

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 3360

Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 10:29 am





Post Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:59 am

aztec wrote:I wasnt on about the substrate, more the quality of the vinyl, eg: putting monomeric vinyl on vans where everyone knows that it wont do, i know plenty of sign makers that would do this


That still doesn't define a cowboy for me. Just because a sign outfit chooses to use a monomeric as apposed to a polymeric, it doesn't make them a cowboy. I've seen plenty of vehicles that could have been applied in one or the other, but there's been more bubbles than your average Aero chocolate bar and creases so big they could be recesses! :o Thats got very little to do with vinyl choice and alot more to do with poor technique, but poor technique doesn't automatically make someone a cowboy.

Where ever some one works, which vinyl they use, which substrate the customer wants, it makes very little difference. Humble opinion, there is nothing wrong with being a beginner, working with cheaper materials or charging less than the next signmaker. Thats not to say there is any need to work like that, but there is nothing wrong with it. Different areas have different needs and signmakers will run their businesses as they see fits their particular area and level of expertise. Granted, we're all guilty of error in judgement, agreeing to do a job that we probably wouldn't show on the boards unless we were slightly inebriated, but again, that doesn't define a cowboy.

A customer walks in, they have a van that has a dubious font and they want you to copy the design exactly onto their new van. You show them a far superior alternative, better font, well spaced and layed out, but they don't want it. "Just copy my van!" You may not like it, but would you turn down the £250 on offer? Its their van, thats what they want and you've got no signwork in on that particular day, so what do you do? If you sign the van, are you a cowboy?

If you go out with the intention of ripping someone off, don't take the time to learn your trade or don't learn by your mistakes, maybe then you could be classed as a dodgey trader. Many signmakers start out on their own, without the help of places like UKSignboards or anyone else. They learn by their mistakes, gain experience with every job, but they need to earn while they learn. I was very lucky to have time-served professionals who were willing to take the time to describe how to do the job properly, which materials to use etc. and I also had the luxury of time and money to learn skills, buy the correct materials and practise the trade. Many don't have that opportunity and the sign we look at and sneer at may have had as much time and attention spent on it as one that we admire.

I'm rambling a bit, but my point is that I believe a signmaker is defined by their character more than their skill level. New skills can be acquired, material knowledge can be gained through experience and poor design can be improved, providing that signmaker has the opportunity and the luxury of time. Humble opinion, the term of "cowboy" is banded about alot on UKSB, but anyone who joins in, gets involved and contributes can not be defined as a cowboy, as the very fact they are here means they want to learn more about the trade and become better at their jobs.

In short, there ain't no cowboys here pilgrim!

Cheers, Dewi
<<

L-Gold Member
L-Gold Member

Posts: 387

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:22 pm





Post Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:58 am

couldnt agree with you more Dewi & Vinny
when a post came up last year on this subject, i must say it seemed as a beginner you were seen as a cowboy in this industry??! perhaps that was just my take on it though.

i dont think you can judge any signmaker on just one of there signs, as has been said you sometimes have to do what the customer requests, the luxury of time and money to craft beautiful signs and sell "good" design is not always available/possible.
<<

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 588

Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 4:20 pm





Post Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:03 am

My Garage

We work from a garage (9000 sq ft) (Ex Arnold Clark facility)

Aztec please show how how your facility it better.

Monomeric vinyls on vans, if they are flat panel, second hand vans that need livery for 2-3 years monomeric is fine.

Too any generalisations for me.

Cowboys go out to rip customers, take money up front and do shoddy job. Everyone makes mistakes everyone should learn form their mistakes. As long as customer is happy in the end , no cowboy.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, perception is a strange thing

REgards Adrian
<<

User avatar

L-Gold Member
L-Gold Member

Posts: 318

Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 6:03 pm





Post Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:57 am

We are very new to sigwriting, and some people may look at us and consider us to be cowboys as we are still learning the trade. But we have to start somewhere, we use what we consider to be the best matirials largely on the advice that you guys give us, and it is much appriated.

We also do a lot of graphic design and print to high standards as we both did graphic design for 4 years, as we are small we have the time to form very good relationships with many of our customers and we appreciate that not everything goes right first time, but we NEVER leave a job knowing it isn't right and the customer can ALWAYS come back to us with any problems.

We are not cheap but nor are we over expensive, we recently did a job and a shop owner down the road had said our customer was paying too much, I took one look at his signage a professionaly kept my face straight.
Might I add, our customer was well pleased!!

I don't think we are cowboys and we strive everyday to improve our techniques and gain more information from you guys, as you are the ones with the experience.

In my eyes a cowboy is somebody who doesn't give a t*ss about matirials, customers, quality or anything else for that matter.

I don't think there are any on here, so you won't mind me saying so.

One thing on the mind.........maximum profit, minimum effort.
They want it but don't want to work for it.

Regards

Aaron :wink:
<<

User avatar

4 Star Contributor

Posts: 444

Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 6:56 am





Post Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:12 pm

So who judges wich of us are cowboys - ourselves, our customers, or other signmakers. I have myself produced signs to customer specifications that I think are complete rubbish, poor layout and using the wrong materials. But the customer gets exactly what they wanted. I will always offer advice and point people in the right direction but ultimately the customer is paying for what he wants. There is signage out there I have done that I am extremely proud of (99% of what i do i might add) and also stuff out there that I wouldnt want anyone to judge me on without knowing the history behind it. We always offer the best price to clients that we can, if others can offer a lower price then that is up to them, i dont consider them cowboys just because they can undercut us.
We also get work coming in all the time, alot of it third party, requiring us to copy artwork and logos, i would be intersted to know how some of the others on these boards are able to produce work that is always entirely original, I would be turning work away every day if i had to take the time to check every layout or logo produced by the customer was entirely original.
The wrong attitude makes a cowboy, me thinks.
<<

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 1052

Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2002 10:56 am





Post Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:03 pm

A cowboy is ... as in any other industry, someone who does poor work and rips you off...
Using cheap materials with poor design is not a cowboy, you can still get a good quality finish.

Vinyl work that has rips, bubbles and creases fitted to a 3mm foamex board, screwed to a wall (no white screw caps), and charges the customer £1000 instead of £100 that is a cowboy. In a nut shell someone that doesn't care, as long as they have your money

Simon
<<

User avatar

L-Gold Member
L-Gold Member

Posts: 318

Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 6:03 pm





Post Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:08 pm

Thats sorta what I meant to say, cheers simon!!

:D :D :D
<<

User avatar

L-Gold Member
L-Gold Member

Posts: 46

Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:18 pm

Country: Canada (ca)




Post Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:59 pm

I would say a cowboy is someone who either won't be around to, or won't be willing to, stand by their product and fix any problems if necessary.
<<

User avatar

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 11115

Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2002 11:04 pm





Post Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:51 pm

I don't know about "Cowboy Signmakers" - I know plenty of "Cowboy Customers" though :-?
<<

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 1966

Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 12:54 am





Post Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:32 pm

martin armitage wrote:I have myself produced signs to customer specifications that I think are complete rubbish, poor layout and using the wrong materials. But the customer gets exactly what they wanted. I will always offer advice and point people in the right direction but ultimately the customer is paying for what he wants.



This statement sums it up a lot.

Can I have a sign, It must be white lettering on a white background with a white shade, Oh yes maybe a white flourish and white stripes would look nice too! :roll:

OK mate it would look better in red and grey but your paying the bill so WTF!

IT is your responsibility as a GOOD sign supplier not only to educate your customer as to where he is going wrong but to persuade him to pay the extra for a proper job well done and for you not to get carried away and not go with the flow just in case they go to the other "cheaper" cowboy down the road.

I have finished a job today and quoted the customer £500, he told me he had a quote for a "SIMILAR" speck job for £350. My attitude was then to explain in detail what he was getting for his money. I could have used 1.2mm aly for the backing tray (it was a big sign) but explained that I would use 3mm aly and would not cut corners to "cheapen" the job. I supplied a small sample to explain my method of construction etc. My customer was well pleased with this and very happy to continue with the job. He even paid me before we had finished fixing it. I like customers like this!

I am not affraid to loose a job on price as I have burnt my fingers badly on many occasions price matching the opposition and not making any money (I even made a loss of over £800 one one big job) So the cowboys can carry on watering down the industry to the point they go t!ts up, but before they go can I just add how they damage the industry for everyone else in their quest for a quick buck.
<<

L-Gold Member
L-Gold Member

Posts: 97

Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2003 9:42 am





Post Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:41 pm

Hi Guys & Gals any room in the saloon?

I think we all get wound up about the "quickie-stickies" as jillbeans says. But lets not remember who causes and continues to fuel this demand CUSTOMERS!

There will always be a sub market that bumbles along and as you say they will be landscape gardeners or laying drives next year!

We try to take the view "we work up to a quality not down to a price", biggest problem is most "new"customers have no conception of this and cannot see beyond the price.

I give you for an example a little tease my son tried back in January, a chap came in from quite a large engineering company locally employs i would guess 150/200 people. He said he wanted a 8' x 4' sign to replace the one that had blown down (last time i saw this sign up was October when we had the high winds) proudly boasting the last one had been up "at least twenty years" ( he could be right i have seen it for the last 11).

He sat down with our graphic designer Vikie and i suppose half an hour later he had a design he was chuffed about. Vikie then called my son Richard to come and sort out the "nitty gritty" as she puts it.

Rich asked his budget the chap said "as cheap as you can, its only a sign".
We can all guess what followed i suspect we have all been there a million times! Rich quoted £375 + VAT which was fair for the Rynobond, frame, vinyl, fitting & design. the chap said you must be joking i was thinking less than £100, But on this occasion Rich was up for a tussle, he dropped the price from £375.00 saying its January we could use it for advertising etc. and said £150 final offer just to see what he would say. the chap said no and off he went!

Two weeks later he had his new sign put up and a right dogs dinner it was too!

4 or 5mm Foamex tech bolted direct to the metal cladding, no rubbers no stand offs obviously no allowance for the 30mm+ it will stretch in the summer.

As it turns out one of our fitters Gary knows the receptionist who works there. he indeed got his sign for £78 no VAT fitted free!

Will it be there in twenty years? I would be gobsmacked if its there in 20 months!

So who causes these "quickie Stickies" to exist?????


WHAT CAN YOU SAY WORDS FAIL YOU?????


Johnboy :cool:
<<

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 14363

Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:36 pm





Post Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:50 pm

Johnboy
would you say the customer got what he deserved?
Do you think the people who supplied the sign were cowboys? or did they make some profit out of the job, if they had been cowboys they would have charged a lot more I'm sure.
But you are right: a lot of the time its the customer that creates the cowboy culture.
Peter
<<

User avatar

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 8338

Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2002 1:00 am





Post Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:54 pm

Dewi, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you having just read Mikes post, there is at least one cowboy on the boards and that is me.

I sometimes struggle to get enough work so I'm definatly not making a quick buck but I am in the unfortunate position where I can't afford to turn a lot of work away.

If a customer comes to me looking for signs I will always do my best to ensure I give them what I consider to be the best possible job but if they tell me that it is to expensive and they can get it else where cheaper then I will look at alternatives, as long as what they end up with is safe and I have tried to explain to them why what they are getting is not really a cost effective sollution and that their business would benefit greatly if the job was done a slightly different way then I will normally do as I am asked.

Maybe I don't have the gift of explaining these things to the customer properly, does the customer think I'm trying to make more money from them by offering a better sollution? I don't know, maybe I have the wrong sort of customers because all they seem bothered about is price.

I may not be really proud of some of the jobs I have done but I have to make a living and as this is what I want to do I see no alternative.
<<

L-Gold Member
L-Gold Member

Posts: 97

Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2003 9:42 am





Post Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:02 pm

Peter,

that's exactly my point. this chaps Dad may well have bought his sign twenty years ago and as i recall was well constructed not that i took any real notice of it specifically.

so if he paid the equivalent of £400 ish twenty years ago the sign cost him £20 a year. this chap will be paying £50+ a year if he is lucky!

So emphatically yes they do get what they deserve! But, the person who put it up either does not have the faintest idea what they have done or just plain don't give a s##t!

And again you are right there are the other extremes who charge a fortune for rubbish, in my opinion these people are just plain criminals!

Regards,

Johnboy :cool:
<<

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 1862

Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:43 pm





Post Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:32 pm

I may not be really proud of some of the jobs I have done but I have to make a living and as this is what I want to do I see no alternative


Martin,

doing what you want to do, making a living and doing it for the last 5 years is an achievement requiring skills, skills you must have...

doing what you want to do is what people strive for and few succeed.....waiting for your pension is a dull job......

doing what you want to do is doing what you want to do


de do do da

:)
<<

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 14363

Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:36 pm





Post Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:48 pm

So emphatically yes they do get what they deserve!



Johnboy, thanks for that,
Exactly what I said about people buying stuff from ebay scammers.
They get what they deserve, if you do your research first, and still go for the obviously far to cheap, bargain of the century option, then yes, you deserve what you get, but I suppose this post will be deleted as well. No rudeness to any one intended, just my humble opinion.
I love all the members of uksb, and could only ever treat them as members of my own family :D

Mr slightly angry, but still in control, just got a small grudge, nothing to worry about, I will not slit my wrists, not tonight anyway,:wink:

Peter

Go on Rob, delete this now Ive got it of my chest
<<

L-Gold Member
L-Gold Member

Posts: 97

Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2003 9:42 am





Post Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:59 pm

Steady Peter the lord God observes all!

I too was shocked at our posts being deleted the other day! as Boab said before he got deleted it is only healthy discussion isn't that what we went to war for once to get the right????

I say that it is easy to see when someone is being rude or abusive and that is not acceptable, but our exchanges the other day were a million miles away from that!

Shame Rob does not answer his emails as quick as he deleted those exchanges???

Peter i salute you for having your own opinion and long may you have it and the right to it!

Regards,


Johnboy :cool:
<<

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 14363

Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:36 pm





Post Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:02 pm

And I salute you, and your rights
I rest my case
Peter
<<

User avatar

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 11115

Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2002 11:04 pm





Post Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:17 pm

There is a company near me that has now asked me on three seperate occasions to supply & fit signs to their fleet of vans.

The first time I quoted them a reasonable price (I thought) per van (The layout they wanted was very complex and used reflective vinyl for most of the layout - much of it going over compound curves).

I was told I was too expensive and never got the work :roll: .

The second time they asked, I reminded them of my earlier quotation.... Yeah - but can you not match the price we have been getting (literaly half the price I had quoted)?

No says I - the job is too time consuming to do it for less.... they were used to lower prices so again I never got the work.

The third time they asked I again told them I would be looking for the original price I had quoted - and unless they were prepared to pay this amount there was no point in me making a trip out to speak with them as I had been through it all before.

Yes says they, but we're not happy with the standard of the work we are getting done so we may consider paying more for a better job. A date was fixed and I agreed to call around discuss the work.

Next morning I receive a phonecall - can we re-schedule your visit to discuss the van work as we are too busy to meet today.

No problem - let me know when you are available.

I haven't heard back yet (presumably they were attracted by the lower price on offer by the competion even though by their own admission the work was sub standard and they were not happy with it).

Next time they phone (and they will :wink: ) I'll just tell them to stop wasting my time.

This is what I mean by "Cowboy Customers" they are being serviced by signmakers who are prepared to underprice their work and so these customers get get used to unrealistic prices yet still expect a decent job to be done- I could go on all day re-counting instances like these. The trick is to recognise these for what they are and to move on and find better customers, meanwhile the real "cowboys" that are servicing these customers quickly go out of business when they discover the prices they are charging are too low to maintain a viable business (:) (:) yee haw!!
Last edited by Phill Fenton on Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
<<

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 14363

Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:36 pm





Post Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:50 pm

Phil,
I have known firms that quote rock bottom prices to get the custom, and then end up with a monopoly, There is something to be said about discount for quantity, and it does not always affect quality. An example is if you had supplied all the graphics for say, microsoft products, since Bill started out, and just made 1p clear profit on each you would probably now be a rich man and retired in the sun.
I do the best I can for a reasonable price, If I am undercut, I let them get on with it. I price my services to suit my overheads and lifestyle.
Peter
<<

User avatar

Trade Supplier
Trade Supplier

Posts: 434

Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:56 pm

Country: United Kingdom (uk)




Post Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:03 am

Dewi, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you having just read Mikes post, there is at least one cowboy on the boards and that is me.

I sometimes struggle to get enough work so I'm definatly not making a quick buck but I am in the unfortunate position where I can't afford to turn a lot of work away.



I agree with andrewkerrb on this. You have been supply signs for 5 years, you may not think they are the best, yet do we all think this way at some time or another. If your client is happy, does that not mean you have done your job? To have been doing this for 5 years is an achievement, that you should pride yourself on.

Just look at the posts asking for second opinions etc regarding work or future work, this is where this community stands out from anything else i have ever seen before.


The Sign industry has been wanting something like this for years. Rob you are a star :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2:


(hot) (hot) (hot) (hot) (hot) (hot)


Vinny
<<

User avatar

Trade Supplier
Trade Supplier

Posts: 434

Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:56 pm

Country: United Kingdom (uk)




Post Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:04 am

ps

I also agree with the earlier statement...

The biggest cowboys are the clients who then dont pay for the work!!!
<<

User avatar

4 Star Contributor

Posts: 444

Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 6:56 am





Post Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:36 am

Surely it is down to attitude, if you dont give a stuff and are out for making a few pounds as quickly as possible and as said earlier are not prepared to stand by your work. Is this the attitude that makes someone a cowboy. We will always advise when we think something is wrong, we supply only we dont fit, and people come back to us all the time, we dont advertise all our custom is word of mouth. But if somebody comes in and wants a cheap sign then that is up to them surely, with our knowledge and experience it is up to us to steer them in the right direction. But if people dig there heels in then, against advice then surely it cant be wrong to supply what they want. They have after all been told the score and understand the pitfalls of buying something cheaper. Dont we all have a choice when buying anything, the choice is out there in almost any shop to buy quality and also to buy cheap, side by side on the same shelf. We know if we buy a drill for £10 that it will be crap and that if we buy one for £150 we would never probably have to buy one again. No one tells us this we just know it. Most people out there would probably buy the one for a tenner, you dont ever see anybody asking what you want it for and offering advice. It seems some people on here would turn people away if they want a cheaper sign, I wouldn't. I would definately like to know what was in some of the deleted posts.
<<

L-Gold Member
L-Gold Member

Posts: 387

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:22 pm





Post Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:41 am

apologies for going off topic, but martin, do you find a supply only service looses you work? have been considering this, but then the customer has a sign with no one to fit it. do you sub fitting out (if so how did you find trade sign fitters in your area)or leave it to the customer?
<<

User avatar

4 Star Contributor

Posts: 444

Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 6:56 am





Post Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:05 pm

dtg,
We offer supply only, but will fit if we really need too although we try to steer clear of this if we can. I really dont think we lose any customers because of this, but then our speciality is quick turn around, and i might add quality as well as quantity. People use us because we deliver when we say we will. Right at this moment I have urgent orders that have to be out tommorrow, one with 200 signs on smallest of 400x300mm largest 1050 x 750 also more orders in pipeline all need to be out by 4.00pm - somehow they will be done, even though there is only two of us designing and applying.
Martin
<<

User avatar

L-Gold Member
L-Gold Member

Posts: 46

Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:18 pm

Country: Canada (ca)




Post Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:14 pm

This whole thread reminds me of...

TOP QUALITY ... RAPID DELIVERY ... LOW PRICE

Please pick any two...
<<

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 8053

Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:22 am





Post Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:16 pm

Seriously, now,
do you think anyone is gonna admit that they are a cowboy?
(martin, you ain't one)
Giddy Up.
Love....Jill
<<

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 2066

Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 10:57 pm





Post Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:23 pm

I think anyone that uses this forum is obviously trying to learn something, therefore no one here should be considered a "cowboy". Although, I'm sure there are a few on here that do own a pair of chaps but that's another topic altogether. :D
I think that no matter what industry you are in there are always going to be people that want to do it cheaper than you.
-Marek
<<

User avatar

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 6589

Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2002 11:19 pm





Post Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:05 pm

I don't think I'm a cowboy. but going on some people's definition, both on this thread and this one https://www.uksignboards.com/viewtopic.p ... highlight= I most certainly am.

I will do the best job I can within the budget available, and stand by my work afterwards, but my main concern is not the well-being of the sign industry in general but to provide for my family, prepare for retirement and to protect the jobs and income of my employees to the best of my ability. Not necessarily in that order. Everybody else can look after themselves

However, I have overheads, a lot more than somebody working from their garage or back bedroom, and time is money so I am not going to spend half an hour trying to talk somebody into something better. I will give my opinion and if they won't accept it then fair enough, but thirty seconds is all the time I am prepared to devote to a cheapskate.

Competition is growing and efficiency is the only way I know to be able to compete and stay in business.
<<

User avatar

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 448

Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:18 pm





Post Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:51 pm

Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:05 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't think I'm a cowboy. but going on some people's definition, both on this thread and this one


Just my thoughts exactly John

Hope to meet you next week
Luv
John
<<

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 8053

Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:22 am





Post Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:23 pm

That thread still pisses me off.
Love....Jill
<<

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 1205

Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 3:07 pm





Post Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:43 pm

There certainly seems to be a few

10 GALLON HATS WI A WAN PINT HEED going about.

Hope this helps and thanks in advance

GOOP
<<

User avatar

L-Gold Member
L-Gold Member

Posts: 544

Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 8:58 pm





Post Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:12 pm

hand's up cowboy!

One more into the (af)fray.

The thread title caught my eye, so i've had aread through the comments as posted by various people.
Following on from a previous thread..(what did you used to do?) i was a miner for 17 years, and an electrical test engineer for 4 years,i got into this by accident really,but through finding this site(and more like it) on the 'net i have learnt a great deal,i understand the mechanics of a signs construction, i always seek advice before building/fixing a sign. I have had to learn software packages on the fly so to speak,taking in night school classes and experimentation at home.
I now manage single handedly to design with the customer, fabricate and fit the sign and continue learning whilst i'm working.
Not all of my work i am proud of( and in 2 instances i have re-done jobs,that i was not happy with)but for the most part i, and the customer, find it acceptable....so am i a cowboy???
From my own personal view, i think not...but up against lots of the work posted on these boards, and up against 'professionally' trained people....yes i probably am..but every day is a learning day.


Darryl
<<

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 8053

Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:22 am





Post Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:40 pm

Darryl, we all start somewhere but cowboys stay in the same place.
Bettering yourself, educating the customer,
learning about design and colors,
doing quality work....
that's what turns a newbie into a sign professional.
Love....jill
<<

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 3889

Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 7:44 pm





Post Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:48 pm

I've just re-read the thread John refers to. Great memories. We should all try to argue like that more often.
<<

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 14363

Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:36 pm





Post Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:26 pm

Jill, I love the real you, but please go back to the fantasy picture, All the other guys on uksb will get the hots, and it could lead to all sorts of problems: family break ups, crimes of all descriptions as they try to raise the dosh to entice you to be their partner etc.
Think of the chaos you are about to cause!
Peter.
<<

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 14363

Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:36 pm





Post Wed Apr 06, 2005 12:59 am

Why o why is "cowboy" a derogative term?
I'm full of admiration for cowboys. John Wayne, Roy Rogers, Rowdy Yates, Matt dillon, Wyatt Earp, Little Joe, and the rest of the Cartwrights.
They were all fine outstanding examples of men with good character.... the good guys.... always upholding law and order.... faught for the west, Looked after there women and families.....Men of principal.
Fighting to the end to protect the sign over the saloon.
Wish I was a cowboy...........
Peter
<<

User avatar

Premium Member
Premium Member

Posts: 11115

Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2002 11:04 pm





Post Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:11 am

Peter Normington wrote:Why o why is "cowboy" a derogative term?
I'm full of admiration for cowboys. John Wayne, Roy Rogers, Rowdy Yates, Matt dillon, Wyatt Earp, Little Joe, and the rest of the Cartwrights.
They were all fine outstanding examples of men with good character.... the good guys.... always upholding law and order.... faught for the west, Looked after there women and families.....Men of principal.
Fighting to the end to protect the sign over the saloon.
Wish I was a cowboy...........
Peter

:lol1: :lol1: :lol1: :lol1:

You've got a point Peter - there are a lot of good Cowboys some of which you have already mentioned. However, there's always one or two that have to spoil it and give the genre a bad name ("Cowboy" cowboys if you like). For example, The "bad" and the "Ugly" cowboys in "The good the bad and the Ugly". It's cowboys like this that give the good cowboys a bad name. :-?
<<

User avatar

5 Star Contributor

Posts: 2066

Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 10:57 pm





Post Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:53 pm

Can't forget the biggest Cowboy of them all....


Jon Bon Jovi!!! I know you are rolling your eyes, but come on.....sing it...
I'm a cowboy, on the steel horse I ride, and I'm wanted....WANTED...dead or alive"
-Marek
<<

User avatar

L-Gold Member
L-Gold Member

Posts: 84

Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:58 pm





Post Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:26 pm

I disagree Marek it has to be John Wayne

I remember a song with the line " John Wayne is big leggy "

Michael

Return to Say Hello & Off Topic Chat



Who is online

Registered users:
No registered users

cron

 

About
Contact
Board Rules
Membership
Terms & Conditions

 

Signapp - iPhone & iPad
Signapp - Android
Vehicle Wrap Training
Vinyl Application Training
Vehicle Wrap Accreditation
UK Sign Group
Site Membership
Advertising
Videos
ISA-UK

 

 

Who is Online

In total there are 80 users online ::
2 registered, 0 hidden and 78 guests
[based on past 5 minutes]

Most users ever online was
370 on Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:02 pm

Registered users:
No registered users

Copyright © 2000 - 2019 Robert Lambie