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Ethical Advice Needed

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Post Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:57 pm

Ethical Advice Needed

Ok where to begin? For the past year I have been working for Greaney Graphics and signs, Mansfield. (a one man band) However scince october I have recieved no wage except for the odd 5-20 ponds here and there. Over Christmas I got £50 (this was to last the christmas fortnight and buy all presents) For the last 4 weeks he has not turned up to work or answered his phone. Leaving me in a bit of a pickle.
His excuse for all this is "things will pick up"
I manged to get in-touch with him today and he said he is really busy and needs me in in the morning.
Now... should I stay or or should I go? :roll:
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Post Mon Feb 21, 2005 5:59 pm

Ethics

Simple answer No... especially with a nipper on the way you need to get sorted with regular work

Cheers
Ian
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Post Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:15 pm

If he really needs you, work out what he owes you.

Use it to your advantage even if you only manage to get whats owing you.

Arrange payment before you lift a finger, and if he says he hasn't got it when you arrive, turn and walk away. I bet you anything he'll get his wallet out.

Always remember, you have something he needs.

All the best,

Cheryl.
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Post Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:17 pm

My own opinion - for what it's worth - is that you should work tomorrow but get the cash at the end of the day - don't let him fob you off with any excuses. Your first priority has to be getting a regular income to provide for baby pixel - with that in mind it may be worthwhile giving Arrow Signs in Derby a call - 01332 347732 - they are part of a bigger group that has just picked up a few good contracts and as a result may have some vacancies.

Good Luck
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Post Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:35 pm

Are you employed by Greaney Graphics? or does he give you work on a sub contractor basis. Either way he's not treating you fairly and I would make sure you're going to get paid before you lift a finger. It does sound as if you would be better off elsewhere so I would start looking around for permanent employment with someone who appreciates you.
Best of luck.
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Post Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:37 pm

Go with what Cheryl says, ask before you lift a finger tomorrow, if you wait until the end of the day then he will have no reason to pay you because you've done the work and he can fob you off again.

That's my tuppence worth.

Jobe
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Post Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:42 pm

I've been in a similar situation where I wasn't paid and was promised things would pick up. This went on for 12 months and I was getting deeper into debt. I was only paid £2000.00 the entire year and that included working most weekends!!

In the end I decided I had to get out and so I started my own company. I have never looked back. If it is something you can do my advice would be go for it.
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Post Mon Feb 21, 2005 6:53 pm

I agree with Cheryl and Jobe, get some cash upfront before you do any more work for the fella. And as Guy said, it may be worth asking around other sign firms and trying to get some sort of alternative work. You may get paid tomorrow from the chappie you've been working for, but if he does it to you again in the future, you're up the creek without the essentials.

If it were me, I'd go in the morning, ask for the money he owes me for the work I'd done to date. Once paid, I'd pop the money in my pocket and wave bye bye. There's no excuse for not paying you for months, and even though you should really have brought it up with him earlier, there is still no real excuse on his part. I'd leave him to it.

Cheers, Dewi
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Post Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:01 pm

Tell him Bye Bye

I agree with Dewi, turn up tomorrow, ask for the money he owes you, even if he doesnt pay you, he'll know he cant take advantage and I wouldnt work for him.

I worked for like this on promises and there'll be good times for the bad, I was suffering and he kept flying planes and buying boats!!!

If you dont work for him you wont be any worse of than you are right now since he doesnt pay ya

You are worth more respect than this guy is giving you

Just my thoughts :)

Lanie
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Post Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:12 pm

Huh? How does this guy run a company if he doesn't turn up for work? You are there on your own?

Either way, if he's not paying you go somewhere that will. Sort your portfolio and go and knock on the doors of some sign companies.
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Post Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:20 pm

autosign wrote:Huh? How does this guy run a company if he doesn't turn up for work? You are there on your own?


That had me a little puzzled as well, if he's expecting you to run his business and he's not paying you, he's asking for more than his fair share of problems! :o

Cheers, Dewi
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Post Mon Feb 21, 2005 10:30 pm

Mate, I agree with the general thoughts in this thread. Basically, if your not going to get paid, you may as well stay home and watch telly. The longer you put up with this situation, the better it is for him.

You obviously have a talent for this game, go out and try it on your own. If you have survived this long on such a poor income, starting your own business can be no worse. You may even find his clients will come to you if you show them you are trustworthy and reliable. Some members here may help you out by doing contract cutting at a reasonable rate until you save for your own gear.

All the best in whatever you do, but I wouldnt be lifting a finger without seeing the money first.

Cheers buddy
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Post Mon Feb 21, 2005 10:47 pm

Pixel I'd put it to him in writing what he owes you (later in court written documents of any sort are better than verbal agreements/promises)
keep a copy for yourself and assuming he dosent pay you id high tail it down to citizens advice closely followed by small claims court on their advice.


Good luck mate!
:thumbup2:

John
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Post Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:46 pm

Before you walk out though phone the speaking clock in America Australia or an 0898 and just leave it running I would. LOL
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Post Tue Feb 22, 2005 12:03 am

what was your agreement ? come and learn come and work ? with out knowing that can't really form an unbaised opinion but I think he's taking the P!!!! only you and he know what was said, even if it was come look and learn £50.00 for two weeks I'd sooner stay in bed, I thought you worked for your self like most of us but if you don't you don't need to be taken advantage of I'm sure with the skills you have you can do better.
sorry if I've spoken out of turn but it makes me cross to see people taken advantage of. We have non sign people that help us out and I woouldn't insult them by offering £50.00 for a fortnite or even a day but like I said before I don't know what your agreement was

Lynn
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Post Tue Feb 22, 2005 12:13 am

Thanks for the advice everyone.
I've decided to sit the man down and tell him that this cant go on. I think i have been too much of a doormat for to long.
I love this trade, but I work to live I dont live to work.

As for setting up on my own, I wish I could. However I cant Drive and I dought i ever will so fitting would be a problem. I suppose I could always keep to the design side of things though...

A portfolio will be sorted in the next few weeks, online and offline.

Thanks again everyone for the advice. Its much appreciated.
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Post Tue Feb 22, 2005 12:36 am

jp.....

Never mind him. The man obviously has no respect for you or your talents so whatever the outcome of the current situation you are going nowhere in your present position.

Good employees are nigh on impossible to find so you should have no trouble in finding another job and then, once you have proved yourself, should be able to demand, and get, a decent wage.

For the present, by all means use your existing employer, but only on your own terms and use his current difficulty to your advantage, but my advice for the long term would be to get out at the earliest opportunity.

Good luck.
Last edited by John Childs on Tue Feb 22, 2005 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Tue Feb 22, 2005 12:41 am

Hi there,

boy do you sound down in the dumps.

Come on, get up and go - Glass half full, not half empty and all that !

Not being able to drive (at the moment) should not hold you back. I sell all my signs mail order. I don't even fit them - I just supply !

Get yourself a free website with wanadoo, and start working freelance.

Cheer up chuck !

P.S. If you doubt ever being able to drive because of the cost involved, contact your local business start up people. Quite often there are grants available to help you learn to drive in order to further your career.
Trust me, I own a driving school :D
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Post Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:12 am

Heck! Some good advice there by CT
Whats interesting is that its attainable without a huge outlay

Actually sounds very interesting
Hhhhhhmmmmmmm!

John
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Post Tue Feb 22, 2005 2:14 am

I like the sound of doing it freelance CT. I will certainly look into it :D This also means I could get more into designs, which is my life life long passion. I have a first class P.C and all the software : the entire adobe, the entire macromedia, the entire corel, autocad, flexisign pro.....
Guess i just need a machine. On ebay as we speak :wink:
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Post Tue Feb 22, 2005 9:56 am

JP, don't know about you mate, but CT's post has got me MOTIVATED. :cool: Pity it is nearly bed time here cause I am roaring to go now.... (hot)

Nothing like a positive attitude to get started for the day... CT's advice is very good. :thumbsup:

Cheers

Shane
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Post Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:58 pm

CT wrote:
Get yourself a free website with wanadoo, and start working freelance.


Cheryl Can I have your email address for some advice on going freelance? :wink:
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Post Wed Mar 09, 2005 2:41 pm

Send him a bill for your work it can be your first invoice.....
or as a couple of Print Trade London boys local to me would say go collect goods to the value of............ :lol1:

one local firm to me in Litho print had 2 directors run up bills with all and sundry on one street. Drove nice cars had nice houses didnt pay staff properly.....anyway dont think the liquidator had much to liquidate when they called as most had been taken in payment by suppliers / staff. Although one account left a few tones of used tyres on the door step.

some satisfaction atleast.....

anyway Pixel good luck with your plans don't let him screw you out of cash.
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Post Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:16 pm

I started by using the computers in my school to do designs for people (I did not have a computer of my own then) made enough money to buy a computer and then eventually set-up a company.

You have the most important piece of equipment that you need, and that is YOU. see someone like the Princes Trust and they will realize this and give you a decent grant to start-up on your own (I think available for people up to 35) :)
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Post Sun Mar 13, 2005 7:37 pm

Hi there,
sorry about not getting back to you earlier. I haven't been ignoring you. I've been absolutely run off my feet this week, and didn't notice the posting.... Sorry.

My email is cheryltissington@msn.com Drop me a line and we'll bat a few ideas around. Always happy to help.

Cheryl :)
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Post Mon Mar 14, 2005 12:23 am

hi there,
Like Peter without more details its difficult but my Brother is a Barrister who spends most of his life on national minimum wage cases!

Believe me when he told me what its all about i was scared s##tless and i pay what i think are very fair wages!

In a nut shell I just called him and asked the question, although he came up with millions of what abouts which i cant answer the nub is this;

The National Minimum Wage Act 1998 applies to all employees. I don't know your age but for over 21's he says it is £4.73 per hour. failure to pay this is a criminal offense. apparently it depends if he is a limited company or a trading as but if he is found guilty he could face huge fines and imprisonment. that will sure as hell get his ears up!

My brother says its dead easy you just call your local job centre or Inland Revenue office (in phone book) they interview you and they get him to produce all his records if hes not paid you the minimum wage they send him a liability notice to pay immediately if he does not they nick him, if hes found guilty they will sell everything they can get their hands on and pay you out. BEST OF ALL THEY CAN GO BACK SIX YEARS!

Best of luck shame your not in this part of the word, but as others here have rightly said skill is always in short supply and CT hit the nail on the head, cheer up and don't let the bas###d get you down (YOU CAN TELL I HAVE SYMPATHY AT ALL FOR SCUM LIKE THIS THEY RUIN THINGS FOR HONEST PEOPLE WHO JUST WANT TO MAKE A LIVING NOT AT THE ABUSE OF OTHERS!).

Johnboy :cool:

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Post Mon Mar 14, 2005 12:55 am

WOW! Thanks for that Johnboy. Give your brother my thanks too.

I only wish I could do that. But we had a gentleman's agreement (I was never happy with it) all cash in hand. I don't think the law protects me.
Worst thing is I relocated from Manchester to work for him turning down a good job at the same time. Oh the naivety of it..........I'm much wiser now.

I have thought about just leaving it, but what he owes would buy me a plotter and set me up. Anyway I may have to leave it as doesn't answer my calls now and when I get through to him on a number he doesnt recognise he says he is driving and will call back.

Thanks again for that johnboy, must be great having a barrister as a brother. Free legal advice :wink: :D
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Post Mon Mar 14, 2005 7:41 am

Hi,
Still got the keys to his shop?? if so empty it and dissapear back home and set up on your own!
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Post Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:36 am

Hi,
Just had another word...... as long as you are not self employed it does not matter, cash, cheque or bank payment. if you do not have terms & conditions of work that does not matter either as after 13 weeks of employment the "national contract of employment" takes over. this guarantees you by law four weeks holiday in any period of 52 weeks ( taken from start date in absence of any agreement) so he probably owes you loads in back holiday pay.

as to the argument of you think you were employed he says you were self employed, if you spend the majority of you working time working for him YOU ARE NOT CLASSIFIED BY THE INLAND REVENUE AS EMPLOYED!

So, if this is your only job and you spend shall we say 25-30 hours a week doing it for over a year. BINGO your employed!

As to the cash in hand here's a good one for you... from the Employment Protection Act 1994 case law... "It is right and reasonable for an employee to believe that what they may be paid has any and indeed all deductions as maybe required by Law from time to time, for this reason i find for the employee in this matter" Denning LJ or Judge as he was then!

As to taking his equipment.... I asked this question as well.... Whilst it is technically theft under the 1932 & 68 theft act, the Police would be very hard put to mount a prosecution when the employer himself has committed a criminal act that has resulted in financial loss to you. my brother lists loads of Working Time Directive & National Minimum Wage cases that employees have "removed goods for safe keeping to cover the debt". None were prosecuted but don't take that as 100% Police can be very fickle!

Best advice from me ask for your money try to get it on tape????

if he says no phone the Inland Revenue Minimum wage and make a formal complaint say you are worried because you don't have a P60.. stand back and watch the fireworks!

you may want to take Racer132's advice and remove them in lieu of debt.

You may want to let us know who this guy is, I doubt if anyone here does deal with him but if someone inadvertently does we could stop.

Good luck.. let us all know how you get on? So is all strange writing but I'm not the legal one just the note taker and messenger!!!!


Johnboy :cool:

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Post Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:41 am

Johnboy...

The employer is in the first post - Greaney Graphics and Signs of Mansfield.


jp...

I shouldn't worry too much about any "gentlemen's agreement". He has blatantly disregarded any agreement there may have been between you so, in my opinion, there is absolutely no obligation on you to comply with it either.

Go for the throat!
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Post Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:52 pm

Sorry John :oops: I did say I'm not the one who got the brains!

Johnboy :cool:
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Post Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:19 pm

but what he owes would buy me a plotter and set me up





pay someone £500 to get your money :D


Andrew
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Post Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:33 pm

Maybe so Johnboy, but at least you got the looks. :D
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Post Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:48 pm

pity you cannot pay the £2 for Thomas Higgins to send him a letter they would sought him for you. But i think you have to be a business to employ them, but others on here will know better about this.
L J
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Post Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:49 pm

Now, Now John its the hat & glasses that do it!

Worrying thing is its one of my wife's favorite photos??


Johnboy :cool:


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