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Post Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:09 pm

LOGO REVAMP

hi all, just a kwik question, if anyone can help or make any suggestions

we have a local company who has approached us about assisting them in "revamping" their tired old logo.

if we do this firstly how do we stop the customer just pinching our ideas and not getting the work in the end?

and as we haven't really done this type of work before, how do we work out pricing/ costs, someone somewhere makes a lot of money from this type of work, time for us to i think.

any ideas??

cheers
stephen
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Post Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:10 pm

charge them per hour, thats maybe advice at one rate & actual designing at another. basicaly a all round hourly rate would be easiest.
as much as you are worrying about them pinching the design, you have to remember, will they like your design?
so you have to charge in steps, if at the end they hate it, you may never see them again & their excuse maybe it was crap & are not paying. :-?
(im not saying it will be by any means, dont take that personal :wink: )
its a hard one to be honest, i dont really know where this will lead for you.
will they get a fleet of vans done, all their signage etc. or are they just want a new logo designed?

try put us more in the picture if you can mate?

on a different note, and has been said by many now. lets say your designing a van. you design it on screen and charge say £50 for it.
if they walk away and dont come back you have £50 for an hours work or so... if they do come back to get the van done, knock the £50 off the overall bill...
with any design sort of work, you need to get a financial commitment somewhere or you are asking to be walked over. i have the t-shirt, the jacket and the baseball cap :wink: :lol1: happens to us all at some point, even with good customers :-?

p.s.
i was working in bradford about 7 weeks ago... oh man you need to tell the council to sort that building site they call a city, out... :-? :lol1:
again, dont take that personal mate :wink: i just hated trying to get a hotel while driving thruogh all those roadworks in a cherrypicker :o :lol1:
i ended up just leaving and got booked in to a hotel in leeds as soon as i got there... ohhh how i droan on and on.. :wink: :lol1:
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Post Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:23 pm

hi, robert, thanks for the comments (except the bradford bits, ha ha)

i will just play it by ear i think, see what happens, you live and learn.

can i ask what you were in my home town for, not poaching i hope?

cheers
stephen
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Post Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:13 pm

hi mate, i was working on a national contract we have, its been ongoing for a few years now, this link will give you the gist of things...
https://www.uksignboards.com/viewtopic.php?p=56080#56080

i was only in bradford for about 6 hours, it was late i was knackered & dying for a breezer... ahem i mean cold beer :wink: driving a cherrypicker at the speed it goes at and the way it handles was adding to my bad frame of mind.. :lol1: i think i took it out on bradford after 4 or 5 days on the road :lol1: :lol1: :lol1:
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Post Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:19 pm

Yep, Robert, stop stealing Bradford's rabbits!! :evil: They're needed to rebuild the city! :lol1: Only joking Stephen! :wink:

On the subject of logo design, its a tricky one. If you redesign a logo, the customer doesn't have to take away a proof, a mere glance of it gives them a direction to go in. Best bet is take a £25 deposit up front before you start, do a couple of options but make sure you put your mark on the proof. Something along the lines of 'this is my design, you copy it, use it or reproduce it without my permission, I'll sue your bottom!', obviously a tad mote polite than that, but thats the gist of it.

Logo design/redesign can be quite lucrative, I've designed a couple of logos for franchise companies and the like. More often than not, you end up tweaking original designs to incorporate 'ideas' from your client, only to remove them later on and return to the original design. Humble opinion, charge by the hour. That way, when they ask you to alter bits, add on whistles and ring on tiny bells, you're covered for your time.

Cheers, Dewi
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Post Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:34 pm

It is my understanding that as the originator of a design you or your employer automatically have copyright. If your customer uses what you have done, or a derivative of it (I wouldn't have thought it would be too hard to find out) without your permission you can sue them.
If they use it and you get paid for your work you should give your customer a letter which passes copyright to them. Mentioning this at the outset might put them off the idea of nicking it in the first place.
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Post Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:39 pm

Copyright is fine, but is hard to prove especialy if its changed slightly, in the real world, to sue would cost loads, all you want is payment for your time.
If you call yourself easy something, stellios ( or his co) has got the bucks to sue. joe bloggs aint
thats how it is
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Post Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:43 pm

If you have oodles of cash to sue them, then using the copyright laws will work, but if you're just starting out or starting logo design as a new line, ppl can usually tell and they push their luck. Even threatening letters don't do the trick, they almost beg you to sue them. At the end of the day, solicitors cost money and the clever companies can drag a copyright infringement case out for months, all the while sending letters that end up costing you £75 to reply to. Sure, eventually you get to court and a judge that should really have retired 3 years prior may rule in your favour, but its a long haul and rarely will a solicitor work for free.

Long winded way of saying, take the £25, its a guarentee that you have something for your efforts, and if they run off with a design you worked on for an hour, its then your choice... do you want to drag them through an outdated court system that couldn't find the truth if it stripped naked, painted itself green, jumped on a piano and sang "I'm the truth, I'm the truth" or do you want to just get back to work and earn some money?

Cheers, Dewi
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Post Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:02 am

seriously, The best way to do this is ask for about a £100 quid up front for a consultation, and tell the customer that gives them x hours of your time, if they choose some of your deigns thats fine. if not then they have to pay more. design is subjective. But the first stage is to find out what they want. This alone is worth money. at the end of your paid time you will know if they are serious or not.
Look at it this way, your solicitor, accountant or bank manager will charge you at least £100 an hour for a chat.
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Post Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:10 am

Peter Normington wrote:Look at it this way, your solicitor, accountant or bank manager will charge you at least £100 an hour for a chat.



Please provide evidence of these ridiculous and misleading claims.



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Post Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:13 am

Peter Normington wrote:Look at it this way, your solicitor, accountant or bank manager will charge you at least £100 an hour for a chat.


that's one of the employment issues i'm going to make my daughter aware of in a few years time..........(make more money than signs) :P but then again a solicitor is a professional liar, so i will maybe reconsider her future as what?.... :D a good old signmaker :wink:


Nik
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Post Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:16 am

outline be subjective and explain your comments.



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Post Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:18 am

I don't know whether to post yet, or wait a bit for outline to edit his post. :wink:

My accountant charged 120 squids for an interview which lasted 15 minutes, in which I asked him to be my accountant. I don't think he did anything else. Oh yeah, he told me to keep receipts. Good enough for you?
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Post Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:23 am

Humble opinion here, but I have to disagree Peter. My accountant charges me a fixed rate for the year, and a bloody good rate at that. My solicitor charges me for what he actually does, and if I ring for a chat, I rarely get charged for basic advice. Bank manager wise, if he required £100+ for a chat, I'd change my bank faster than you could say "Duh".

I've worked for quite a few companies before I became a signmaker, designing logos and the like and believe me, company directors can be so tight if you gave them a lump of coal, they'd stick it where the sun don't shine and turn it into a diamond in about an hour! :lol1: If you're a good name in the design industry, like http://www.digitalmarmalade.com for instance (my idols for some time in the world of web design), you can demand a good fee up front. Other wise, you're stuck with asking for a reasonable sum and then crossing your fingers they like your design so much they want more. Then they might pay you.

Cheers, Dewi
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Post Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:25 am

Peter Normington wrote:so outline be subjective for once in your life and explain your comments.
Please we are waiting with baited breath.


I suppose you didn't comprehend nor understand my comment, so for you, I reiterate. Please provide evidence of these ridiculous and misleading claims.


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Post Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:32 am

Here's some more, my Dad has just gone through a solicitor for some faulty windows and yep they charge £120 an hour.

Dave
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Post Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:36 am

Dewi
you pay a fixed sum per year right? like i do, How many hours does your account actually take to do your accounts. work it out per hour and you would be cringing, bet you dont have an itemised invoice, anyway this is all getting off the original subject, and if outlines comments want to be continued i would suggest a new thread,
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Post Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:39 am

Dewi wrote:Humble opinion here, but I have to disagree Peter. My accountant charges me a fixed rate for the year, and a bloody good rate at that.


wait until you have been in business for a few more years Dewi!! it all changes.. same with your solicitor, bank manager...he just whips the cash out without a reasonable explanation to me saying...why did you do that?..... :D :D :o


Nik
Last edited by Nicola McIntosh on Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:44 am

niknaxpc wrote:
Dewi wrote:Humble opinion here, but I have to disagree Peter. My accountant charges me a fixed rate for the year, and a bloody good rate at that.


wait until you have been in business for a few more years Dewi!! it all changes.. same with your solicitor, bank manager...he just whips the cash out without a reasonable why did you do that?..... :D :D


Nik


I have never been charged anything (apart from expected fees) for seeing the three professionals at anytime, if you are change your Bank, Solicitor and Accountant. Period.
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Post Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:45 am

In my case Peter, my accountant has already put in alot of time to help me. He's helped me reorganise the financial side of my business and really made me think about where I spend my time and money, plus given me practical help and customers as well.

I can't be rude to him by telling you what exactly I pay as a fixed rate, but I know if he charged me £120 an hour, the number of hours he's put in up to now would mean I wouldn't get my tax return in on time this coming year :-?

Honestly, I'm not arguing for arguings sake, I have never been charged £120 an hour for anyones services, not even emergency plumbers. Yes, some solicitors do charge extortionate rates, but usually its the ones that ensure they have a winning case and don't usually charge the plaintiff if they lose, they're interested in gleaning the costs from the court room judgement or an out of court.

Andy, if you're account charged you that much, you need a new accountant! Begeezuz thats alot of cash to be told how to organise your reciepts!!! :o

Cheers, Dewi
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Post Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:48 am

DaveBruce wrote:Here's some more, my Dad has just gone through a solicitor for some faulty windows and yep they charge £120 an hour.

Dave


Of course they will charge in this respect :-?
Any reputable Solicitor would do the first half-hour free in this case to assertain any valid worth in the said claim, any reputable Solicitor would certainly not charge for any form of speculation.

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Last edited by J. Hulme on Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:48 am

hi outline!! great your back on board!! :P


i don't want to change my bank as ed has been with them since 1973.. the accountant...fab!! :P solicitor...ooh now that's a soft spot!! :roll:
ed got charged £53 for a three minute interview..must have been about five years ago know!! :o

nik
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Post Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:50 am

All this is going off tangent. New thread required?



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Post Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:51 am

ohh!! it's friday night!! (-)


nik
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Post Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:52 am

niknaxpc wrote:hi outline!! great your back on board!! :P


nik


I'm not Nik, just a flying visit to keep my mate Dewi happy :wink:
I need some Christmas cards so it's a bitta creep creep time...
Down Dewi :wink:
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Post Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:58 am

Oooooeeerrrrr Friday night indeed! Off topic ...

Wondered what had happened to you Outline, I was just commenting to Steve the other night that I had not seen you on for a while. You certainly make a come back eh!

Our accountants are fantastic, I call them quite a bit and do not get charged, I have known them for a few years now and this is the second business I have had with them, they do not charge willynilly. I guess its all about finding the right ones :D
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Post Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:07 am

Carrie & Steve, our accountant is also brilliant and does not "charge" for a chat, but worked out on an hourly basis he charges what he thinks hes worth. Now that is the pointy I was making about the original question, on how to charge for logo design We pay our accountant what he asks for because we think hes worth it and we trust him. so why shouldnt this apply to us as signmakers/designers?
peter
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Post Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:09 am

I disagree that Outline is going off topic here, this is very relevant to the topic, albiet with a quick snipe at my beloved CorelDRAW :evil: (If Stevo designs my christmas cards in CorelDRAW, I'd be a very very happy man! :D) :wink:

Being asked specifically to design a logo is different from being asked to design a sign. The logo you design could be used for all manner of purposes, and granted, if you design a logo as part of a sign, the same could be said. But... if you're new to logo design, or indeed signmaking, you can't expect a customer to have confidence in your abilities without a good portfolio. In logo design, you're only as good as your last design. I learned that the hard way.

If you want to be a solicitor, an accountant or a bank manager, you either have to study hard or be in the industry a reasonable amount of time. When was the last time you saw an 18yr old bank manager? They command good money because they're highly qualified. Now, no disrespect to anyone here, but any muppet can go and buy a computer, a copy of some design software and proclaim to the world "I'm a designer"... but its the portfolio that speaks volumes!

A good portfolio commands you the money and maybe, just maybe, you can get the £100 an hour as a one man band, but if you're starting out and don't have a proven track record, you need to either be the most persuasive chap on the planet or accept less money to build up credibility.

I may be relatively new to signmaking, but I've been self employed most of my working life. I've dealt with tradesman and professionals alike, and as Carrie has pointed out, you find the right person who charges the right amount. Same goes in the design world. If I wanted the best logo I could ever have, I'd be off to Soho to a little design shop I know of, but if I want to use somebody local, I don't expect Soho prices... especially with no portfolio!

Sorry if I've offended anyone here, must be the Friday night syndrome again! :D

Cheers, Dewi
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Post Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:12 am

Peter Normington wrote: Look at it this way, your solicitor, accountant or bank manager will charge you at least £100 an hour for a chat.


Peter Normington wrote: our accountant is also brilliant and does not "charge" for a chat,peter




Misleading and incorrect information, with proven quotes, I rest my case.
Everyone happy now?

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Last edited by J. Hulme on Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:26 am

not worth a reply really, but selective quotes, not it context dont prove zilch
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Post Sat Dec 04, 2004 10:49 am

Yep solicitors do charge £120 an hour I have been told to my face by one in the flesh, there is the proof in black and white, and in the flesh (for me anyway).

Also he told me that their charges where higher than the court would pay if we won the case so would still have to pay him extra.

Enough said

Dave
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Post Sat Dec 04, 2004 10:56 am

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Post Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:41 am

Fair play, you can't exactly argue with that as far as solicitors go. I personally have never been charged at that rate, but if that is the recommended, you can bet 70% of solicitors will charge it.

The fact still remains though that there is a huge difference between, for example, a solicitor and a designer. It takes a minimum of 7 years I've been told to qualify fully as a solicitor and get those rates. It takes 7 minutes to buy a computer from your local PC shop, complete with software, enabling you to shout 'I'm a designer'. Those who choose to get professional qualifications do have to work long and hard for them, but when was the last time you asked a designer to show you their qualifications? I wasn't asked once which university I went to or what grades I got, all my clients were interested in was whether or not I could do the job, and did I have enough in my portfolio to give them confidence that I was capable.

I'm not in anyway trying to devalue a service. I know alot of good designers who are underpayed and undervalued in the firms they work for, but I've seen one after another go it alone and end up back in paid employment after 12 months, and thats with a good portfolio. I'm just being realistic here, the small to medium sized enterprise does not appreciate design as a cost more often than not, and telling your local meat wholesaler you're going to charge him £100 upfront to redesign his logo is incredibly difficult, especially when you have 100 wannabe's tapping away on home computers using Microsoft Publisher as their weapon of choice.

In a nut shell ('cause I'm going on a bit now :wink: ) designers who are self-taught are just as valuable as those trained professionally, but everyone has to start somewhere. £25 an hour for someone who is essentially still learning their trade is reasonable money, and its a starting point. If the designer is a good salesperson, they can order build and soon have an order worth a few hundred pounds on top of the original design few. Its just my humble opinion, sorry if I've offended again :-?

Cheers, Dewi
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Post Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:02 pm

With relevance to "Professional Designers" have a look at this story
http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/news/art ... p?ID=30054
get yourself a BA in graphic design and you can charge mega bucks for any old $hite :evil:
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Post Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:31 pm

Steve Broughton wrote:get yourself a BA in graphic design and you can charge mega bucks for any old $hite :evil:


But check out.....

http://www.brightdesign.com/

Not only does Keith Bright have an impressive portfolio, he is also an award winning designer of over 30 years. Its his experience, design style and good industry connections that allows him to command mega bucks, and although its highly unlikely that he wouldn't have professional qualifications, his biography doesn't mention any.

The UCLA logo though, that L looks mighty close to the A. Maybe thats part of the design, showing that the Los and Angeles belong together historically. Or maybe I need my eyes testing? :lol1:

Cheers, Dewi
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Post Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:18 pm

thanks for all your comments and suggestions chaps, i'll give the customer a call on monday and "play it by ear"

as far as the bank manager goes; don't even get me started on that subject.

this is one i did earlier

by the way thats not me (either of them!!)

cheers
stephen
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Post Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:35 am

WoW! That thread REALLY derailed!!! Must be late....

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