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PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

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Phill Fenton

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Post Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:45 pm

PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

After a gap of a few years, I have once again been phoned by PPL in an attempt to get me to pay a music license for my business.

Despite the fact I don't play music they continued to harass me on a daily basis a few years ago. This only stopped when I registered my telephone number with the TPS (Telephone preference agency) and lodged complaints.

When they called again today I told them I wasn't interested in their call and hung up straight away. I have since registered another complaint about them to TPS.

They're probably targeting our industry again just now so I suggest if you get a phonecall from them you take the same course of action as I have done.
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Phill Fenton

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Post Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:08 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

Looks like PPL and PRS have joined forces creating a new company that was incorporated in september 2016

Details Here:-

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10376001

They haven't yet filed any accounts as they have only been trading for a few months, but you can be certain that when they do we will discover they pay their directors huge salaries as they did before when they were PRS and PPL.
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NeilRoss

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Post Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:30 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

Phill Fenton wrote:After a gap of a few years, I have once again been phoned by PPL in an attempt to get me to pay a music license for my business.

Despite the fact I don't play music they continued to harass me on a daily basis a few years ago. This only stopped when I registered my telephone number with the TPS (Telephone preference agency) and lodged complaints.

When they called again today I told them I wasn't interested in their call and hung up straight away. I have since registered another complaint about them to TPS.

They're probably targeting our industry again just now so I suggest if you get a phonecall from them you take the same course of action as I have done.


Seconded!
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Robert Lambie

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Post Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:16 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

We have paid it for the past couple of years now then guess what... another one comes in which piggy backs the first and a fee has to be paid to them too. joke!
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Phill Fenton

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Post Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:24 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

They operate in the same way as many charities paying huge salaries to their directors for doing little or nothing.
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Peter Wynne

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Post Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:56 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

Outside of being sign/print/graphics, I'm a musician and a fully paid up member of the Musicians Union... HOWEVER... even I think PPL and PRS are complete non-sense!! The fee's are completely ridiculous, and as Richard points out above, as soon as some jumped up little musician decides that it's his god given right to make a living performing his 'art' (I use that term very loosely!!) then a new division sets up and everyone then has to pay them too. And the money goes where?? Certainly not back into the pockets of musicians!

We have a blanket rule here whereby if ANYONE rings and says they're from any sort of music licensing company, we say nothing and hang up. I once worked for a firm who got fined for not having a license, and the fine was FAR less than the collective total of fees they 'should' have paid over the years!

Pete

p.s. I only pay my Musicians Union fee each month for the Public Liability insurance, legal cover and equipment insurance that comes with it!
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James Boden

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Post Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:58 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

Can someone please explain why this is even relative in our field. I don't see the angle :awkward:
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Phill Fenton

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Post Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:12 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

They target all small businesses from hairdressers to garage mechanics. If you admit to playing music at work they demand a licence fee off you. If you don't pay up they take you to court (money is no object as it is money that would otherwise be paid as royalties to musicians - they still take their directors emoluments regardless). I'm all for copyright and getting paid for work produced but these guys are leeches exploiting the system. If you've ever been a victim of their campaign of harassment you would understand.
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James Boden

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Post Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:44 am

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

Sounds like a loop hole that needs to be closed. Can't believe these types of cases make it to court, lets hope someone puts a stop to this.
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Phill Fenton

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Post Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:06 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

Just a quick update on this. I have had no further calls since and received this reply from the TPS today:-

TPS has notified the company you reported that a complaint has been received relating to a breach of the above regulation. They have been instructed to investigate your complaint and respond to us within 14 days of receipt of our letter of complaint. We have also asked that they do not make any more unsolicited direct marketing calls to your telephone number and that it is suppressed.

I should point out they will only investigate on your behalf if you are already registered with the TPS for 28 days or more. In my case I registered a few years ago to stop their calls. I am of course happy to receive legitimate marketing calls from companies that support our industry, and have never complained about any unsolicited marketing calls before.

Don't be cowed by their bully boy tactics. They're the ones that are breaking the law if they make an unsolicited call to your number if you register with the TPS.
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Jean Oakley

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Post Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:39 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

funny i to have had a year or so off without any calls and last week had a call asking me about playing music at work (i dont and never have) Anyhow the questions she asked verged on the unbelievable, did i listen to music anytime at work even off a computer did i have a music tone on my phone if customers are put on hold? really thought the next question was going to be do i whistle when i work :lol:
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Martin Oxenham

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Post Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:21 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

I said to them once If I was playing music which I don't and someone who heard it thought "I like that song" and went out and bought it, then I promoted that and the sale is down to me so where is my commision ?? They just laughed.
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Jon Marshall

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Post Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:52 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

One of our guys told them we listen to Talk radio and they still said you have to pay because those stations have intro music etc.

Never paid them and didn't hear from them again.
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Phill Fenton

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Post Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

Would you believe this lot called again today despite the fact they are currently under investigation.
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Phil P Davies

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Post Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:43 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

First time I have ever had a phone call from music licensing to any unit (ive been here for 3 years) and it was after reading this . . . . Coincidence . . . ? :shocked:

Do you have a radio, no. Television? On hold music? etc etc . . . no
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Phill Fenton

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Post Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:25 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

They target specific industries at a time, Hairdressers, Garages, Sign makers etc. Must be currently working through signmakers hence the reason for the calls and a warning to others
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Phill Fenton

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Post Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:51 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

Phil P Davies wrote:First time I have ever had a phone call from music licensing to any unit (ive been here for 3 years) and it was after reading this . . . . Coincidence . . . ? :shocked:


Maybe they've been trawling through UKSB looking for victims?

In which case :tongue: :tongue: :tongue:
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David Lowery

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Post Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:41 am

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

I received many a letter of PRS and phone calls. I sent them a letter by recorded delivery saying if they persisted contacting me that I would sue them for corporate harassment. Didn't hear from them again.
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Denise Goodfellow

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Post Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:58 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

Registered with the tps now
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Peter Johnson

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Post Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:31 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

How would that work if you work from home? I mean, you pay a TV licence and you might be playing music you've already bought and paid for.

I could possibly see an argument if other people are in the house, but it would surely be a weak argument?

Just wondered is all.
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Phill Fenton

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Post Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:05 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

They still expect a small business working from home to pay their licence fee. It's legalised extortion.
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NeilRoss

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Post Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:22 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

Phill Fenton wrote:They still expect a small business working from home to pay their licence fee. It's legalised extortion.


Phill, when they first began calling me, perhaps eight or ten years ago their main argument was that customers wold hear it. Is it still that way or do they include staff nowadays?

Neil
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Phill Fenton

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Post Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:44 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

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Denise Goodfellow

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Post Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:53 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

Surely every sign needs planning approval

Perhaps I should ring business to see if they have it, if not I'm going have to fine them.

Reading through their q and a's, they say you need a license for playing a cd where the public might hear it.

What about music from a cars stereo, played loud or just the window open....
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Vic Adair

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Post Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:56 am

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

Surely, if we have allready paid for our CD's and the Broadcasting companies have already paid for this then their customers, us, dont need to pay unless we are making a profit out of playing the music .... ie Discos, dance halls and clubs etc etc
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Jean Oakley

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Post Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:38 am

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

Surely, if we have allready paid for our CD's and the Broadcasting companies have already paid for this then their customers, us, dont need to pay unless we are making a profit out of playing the music .... ie Discos, dance halls and clubs etc etc


yeah youd think so wouldnt you. Just money for old rope and middle man making all the money
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Stephen Morriss

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Post Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:21 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

Their website says that if your work in a home office then your exempt but only if it's just you and other family who live there that can hear the music.
I was caught out by this unfortunately, I was feeling kind of mellow so I didn't tell them to go away as I normally would and stupidly answered some questions (thinking it was a survey) and then was told I'd be getting invoiced :?: :evil: I quickly woke up then!
Anyway after some investigation I found home offices are ok so I've written a letter showing the relevant info etc, but I bet I hear back from them still demanding money.
The worst bit is that no customer would be able to hear music as I don't get customers in the office, we don't sell items from stock and the only customers who come are dropping off signs or vehicles.
There is also a small business rate which they keep hidden (and only admit to if you tell them you know about it) so if you have 4 or less employees it's a joint payment for PRS and PPL of around £47 each so less than the £156 PPL demand at first, and I do mean DEMAND!
When they phoned they only used the acronym PPL not the full business name, and I was only told about the conversation being recorded near the end so I'm not sure it would stand up in court if I was to take it that far but I'd rather pay a solicitor hundreds than them forty odd pounds.
So we'll see how it goes.

Steve
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Phill Fenton

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Post Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:23 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

You have to bear in mind they are a private company and can only enforce a contract if you agree to it. Simply refute their license and explain that you will not play music on the premises any more so no longer require the licence. There's bugger all they can do about it but try and bluff you into paying.

Attached is their latest company accounts (2015) - scroll down to page 22 to see how much these leeches are paying themselves.
Attachments
ppl accounts 2015.pdf
(1.25 MiB) Downloaded 76 times
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Stephen Morriss

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Post Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:46 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

Yup, I've already told them that, and I haven't, but mine is a home office anyway so by their own terms I don't need a licence.
Leaves a bad taste and my main objection is the heavy handed approach they take, also like you I'm registered with the TPS so they shouldn't have rung in the first place.

Steve
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Phill Fenton

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Post Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:03 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

In that case put in a complaint to the TPS - they are clearly in breach (though claim it's not a marketing call) as it is an unsolicited call that you regard as a nuisance - the more that do this the more likely they are to be fined for their dubious business practices. If you're already registered with TPS it only take a few minutes to file a complaint through their website. I've filed two complaints in the last fortnight
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Stephen Morriss

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Post Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:05 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

Might do that then.

Steve
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John Hughes

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Post Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:50 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

Hi. We just received an invoice for £158 :(

Had a rather heated phone conversation saying we're not a business open to the public and we only play Apple Music from our phones. He was having not any of it and saying they would impose a further 50% surcharge if don't pay within a week!

Do I pay ????

Thanks
John
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Hugh Potter

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Post Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:05 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

Personally I would say no, you're not open to the public and as you only play apple music through headphones on personal devices, there is no chance of anyone hearing the other persons music. I would stick to my guns and simply refuse, telling them I'd be putting a complaint in to trading standards over their bullying tactics when you clear don't play music other than on a personal device. .
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Phill Fenton

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Post Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:12 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

Don't engage with them. This means not entering into any contract or agreement to purchase a license. When they phone under the pretext of carrying out a questionaire simply hang up and tell them nothing. Clearly they are targeting our industry at the moment (hence my warning and reason for initiating this thread).
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David Hammond

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Post Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:01 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

How can they impose a 50% surcharge, (or any charge) without you entering a contract stating that first?

They can't say you agreed to that, without first making it clear they were the terms? Of which you could decline to accept them?
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Stephen Morriss

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Post Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:17 am

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

I think if you play music through headphones they can't do anything so just tell them nothing.
If you do get an invoice make sure to reply in writing.

Steve
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Denise Goodfellow

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Post Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:46 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

My husband is rather paranoid about sales calls, as years ago we were signed up for an electrical supplier wrongly.

So our rule is.... Listen for a few seconds to what they have to say, if it's a survey or a can we update your details or sales, we simply say no thanks and put the phone down.

Not only can you fall foul of scams by giving them even limited info, but it eats into your day. We must get 6-12 a day we haven't the time to listen to them all..

No thanks, and put the phone down :tongue:
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Stephen Morriss

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Post Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:13 am

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

That's what I normally do Denise, if it'd been any other time than lunch time I'd have just said, not interested, don't ring again, and put the phone down.
It's re taught me an important lesson, say nothing.

Steve
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Denise Goodfellow

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Post Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:42 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

This actually stems from not saying anything when the police pull you over in the car and ask can you think why I've pulled you over? You incriminate yourself.

Keep it shut lol
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Denise Goodfellow

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Post Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:29 pm

Re: PPL (Standing up for Music Rights) raises it's ugly head again

3 times this week they have called me, doing my head in

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