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The Pro's and Con's of VersaCamm vrs Cadet

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Post Fri May 28, 2004 8:33 pm

The Pro's and Con's of VersaCamm vrs Cadet

Whats the pro's and con's of the VersaCamm and the Cadet?

What's the better machine and why?

I've heard that if you print a print on the versacamm at 100% coverage and laminate it, what's the laminate sticking to, if the ink's not bitting into the vinyl properly, will it delaminate, as the laminate is realy sticking to the ink and not the vinyl?

Any of your thought's would be helpfull!!

From Mark
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Post Fri May 28, 2004 10:56 pm

I have a Versacamm and have no problems at all with the inks sticking to the vinyl. Trust me, the ink DOES stick to the vinyl. The Eco-Solvent inks ARE solvent inks but not as agressive as the 'full solvent' inks. Pick a good digital grade vinyl and there will be nothing to worry about.

The best results seem to come from the Polymeric vinyls. I get great results with the Metamark Digital vinyls and suprisingly with Metamark calendared (5-7yr) vinyls too. Grafityp wrapping vinyl (cast, I think) gives excellent results too. I will be trying some Avery digital shortly to see how it performs.

Laminates help save the print from damage in agressive environments (vehicles) and I have had no problems with laminates lifting or pulling ink off.

In my opinion, there is little to choose between either machine, it's mostly down to the settings and the vinyl. All the cr*p you hear is mostly sales talk. I bought the Roland basically because I got a better deal and also that the supplier was local, not because I thought it was any better than the Cadet. Each has its advantages and disadvantages, and to be honest, they really are minor. If it was the case of one better than the other I would have had no hesitation in spending more if needed. At the moment I believe both machines are selling for around the same so if I were you, I'd go for the nearest/best support.

B&P ccould always convert my versacamm to a cadet if I feel I need to, but as yet I don't see any need.
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Post Fri May 28, 2004 11:06 pm

Good thread to start Mark - I too have been puzzling over this one.

A recent thought I had was to buy a Cadet but to run it initialy using the versacamm Roland ecosolvent ink. This way you would have the option to choose to change to the more agressive inks (without any modification to the machine) if you choose to at a later date.

Is this a viable solution? - Any comments on this?
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Post Fri May 28, 2004 11:30 pm

PHILL
Very good solution.. Never thought of it like that actually.
Always thought vice versa.
It would be interesting to hear if this is a possible and what others think?


Signworkshop:
It’s a hard choice mate, but one that is so close on comparison.
Basically, the only thing I can advise is to read al the pros and cons from this site and make your own decision!
I have been in the same boat for some time and like many, I had not one clue about the digital side of things as far as inkjet, eco sol and solvent printers.
Cutting it short, & in my own opinion is….

Inkjet: for advertising, short term, indoor use. POS etc
Eco-solvent: for advertising, short term, & POS etc & general signage use.
True-solvent: for all the above and a “sign makers printer”

Like, JSK said, eco-sol printers are just as good as the solvent. My opinions though are based on what this site is about, “Sign making” and at that I think true-solvent printer, because it has that better bite & a far more stubborn resistance to abrasion and chemical attack gets my thumbs up!

The cadet is a modified versacamm to accept true solvent inks. Same machine, almost same price but different inks. Each have their own downside. The question is… which one will give you more piece of mind?

As for laminating on ink and will it de-laminates? Time will tell.
Eco-ink does have much better bite than inkjets but is it as good as solvent?
After all, if crossing van panels it’s stretched into recesses, but will it take the test of time?
My personal opinion on this is that although biting good and hard, it’s not biting as good as the true solvent, so how can it compare for peace of mind?
Eco-solvent prints have a shinier finish than true solvent prints, so for exhibition work up close the finish is better. But to the trained eye...
At sign UK Roland gave away a free laminator as part of the 3 day promotion.. You have to ask yourself why?

Again.. I’m not trying to sway you from the versacamm, just pushing my own thoughts on the matter.

only you know what you will use the machine for most. but do you want to restrict yourself after this type of investment?
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Post Fri May 28, 2004 11:39 pm

I'm in the market for one of these (versacamm or cadet, I don't really care, neither do my customers) suppliers, if your price is more competitive than the others, I'll be interested, if it isn't, then I'm not.

None of those ink and media and the machine is free contracts please, YOU REALLY ARE MUPPETS! GO TO HELL !!!

Does the Cadet need suitable extraction (by law or the HSE) due to solvents incorporated in the inks, or can you use as per normal in a large enclosed office?
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Post Sat May 29, 2004 3:00 am

[quote=
None of those ink and media and the machine is free contracts please, YOU REALLY ARE MUPPETS! GO TO HELL !!![/quote]

Whats that all about then speak EENGLEESH Man.

Goop
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Post Sat May 29, 2004 6:55 am

Heh:)
I think he meant something about the fact that there was a contract being touted that if you buy media and inks from a co , they would give you the machine free and that we would be chumps to believe that there was a free lunch involved there.

Do not consider the cost of a laminator and whether you will have to laminate into the decision , you will have to do so under the same circumstances in both cases. Rather look at the design package you use , how it fits in with the rip and how the wokflow compliments your market and whether the rip has adequate profiles for various media (VERY IMPORTANT)
the ultimate determinant would be the quality of the sample printed of your artwort on the material you use (prefferably in front of you ) and further samples of stuff you intend to print on or do.

As to full prints and laminations sticking , If you use the right cold pressure cast lamination , you wont have a delamination problem with either inkset.
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Post Sat May 29, 2004 12:25 pm

gordon
rodneys right.. basicaly its a deal being offered just now from a large supplier. i looked into it a while back and didnt fancy it because i reckon we can quickly recoop the cost of buying the machine and ultimately own it with the matter of months. the other way is a fairly good idea if you have the customers already! since then i have noticed it has been changed and now offer 3 or 4 various methods. havent looked into it all this time so cant comment.

rodney
i dont think delamination is a problem with prints on the likes of posters, deisplays, interior work. but outside in harsh conditions & on the likes of vehicles (recessed areas especialy) it is a problem. i have (in the past) applied laminated prints that delaminated "while i was fitting" the actual image was still on the adhesive side of the clear vinyl and a very faded image on the printed surface.
things have come a long way since then, i know. but still worth keeping in mind.
i agree that whatever machine chosen the graphics should be laminated on vehicles for long term use.. e.g. over 12-16 months..
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Post Sat May 29, 2004 5:35 pm

I laminate everything that goes out of the workshop from my Versacamm. A while back l did a large 40ft lorry, i laminated the prints after 12 - 24 hours (next day) and fitted them two - five days later. I printed onto a hexis cast and laminated with a cast laminate. I went back to have a look the other day and the cast has worked a treat. No sign of delamination anywhere on the signs and no sign of this on any other jobs that we'vedone in the local area.
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Post Sat May 29, 2004 9:16 pm

try this

the cadet etc is a rebadged versacamm anyhow, i wonder why roland didnt put a more agressive ink from the start? my idea is this....

roland looked at the sign market and i think has come up with the nearest machine to low maintenance cost efectivness and as close to plug and play as possible.

no messy cartridges, no blocking of pipes, self cleaning, sealed heads when not in use etc pretty much trouble free i guess.

the only drawback i see with the converted machine is how the full solvent will effect the internal workings of the machine?

i'd be intrested in seeing the price of the service contracts for both machines for the second year of use...

maybe this would give us all a better idea which is the more reliable and i guess most cost effective machine in the long run.
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Post Sun May 30, 2004 12:25 am

Forbie wrote:[quote=
Whats that all about then speak EENGLEESH Man.

Goop


No conmen.

Is that clearer?
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Post Sun May 30, 2004 12:59 am

Sounds like you had a bad exprience Outline.

Goop.
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Post Sun May 30, 2004 11:05 pm

No mate, just prefer someone to say it's £xxx per month on a finance agreement instead of someone trying to tell me its £158.62 a week paid 3 months in advance over 21 quarters and if I sell 4.5 Sq metres for **1** hour per day at £55 per metre on their media and inks package I'll make a 'clear' profit of £1000 per week, Maybe I'd just print pink flying elephants eating psilocybe mushrooms on their media :wink:
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Post Mon May 31, 2004 5:53 am

One of the really big advantages to going full solvent is the cost of inks and the variety one can get. Essentially your cost of ink should halve *IF* you can use aftermarkets. The problem is the fact that you do not get consistent results that way , unless the ink mnfgrs have created profiles that actually WORK!!!. also , I doubt any mnfgr will honour warrantees if you dont use their inkset. As to consumables, have a look at http://www.solventjetsupport.com/accessories.html , they modify Rolands for full solvent and have a parts list , most of these are probably things one will have to budget for in respect of replacement. Im not saying these parts will fail , but they seem to be listed thus imho they are sort of consumables?
On any of the machines , budget for a set of heads in a year or 18 months.
Make no mistake , the issue of profiling is going to drive you dilly , each inkset needs a profile to work at various resolutions with various media and the generic profiles that are supplied with all machines often DONT work due to environmental and calibration issues apart from the fact that the SAME media is made differently in various countries. Then of course ink batches vary as well!!!.
Regardless of which machine you get , if you use the wrong profile you will be , to put it bluntly , b-ggered.
In the RIP there are a huge amount of variables to consider.
There are all sorts of levels of ink depositing , an overall level and various levels for the various colours. Get this wrong and you have bleeding prints. Then there is the rendering intents of cmyk and rgb , split into both vector and raster sections , colour seperation rules , dot size and shape , head speed , bidirectional calibration and about a zillion other switches and settings. Your dealer MUST get the rip working well and explain all its various features to you - this is the most vital part of it all , if you dont get support here , forget about printing well or bank on huge amounts of testing and wasted material before you DO get it right.
Dont buy another set of carts to use as backup as the ink usage is NOT even across the colours , magenta usage is a lot more than anything else , then cyan , then yellow and black lasts a long time (obviously dependant on what you print).
We now have the grenadier and the cadet supplied locally , I'll get some more info on both of these vs the unmodified machines and try to find out whether the local guys offer a "solvent" upgrade to the unmodded machines.

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