How to fit these signs

Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:52 pm Author: Stuart Green

Hi all. I was wondering if any of you have had experiene in fitting signs with these size's :

3000x1500mm
6000mmx1500mm
9000x3000mm
3000x600mm

The problems i face is my supplier is saying he cant get it in one of the sizes. also I spoke to someone else and he tells me in those sizes the problem is the boards can pop out of the frame. is that true???

what is the best way to do this?? also I have been told to use flex facing which i prefer not to use so advice would be much appreciated. I was hoping to use panatrim frames and hoarding boards or alu panels.

thanks

stu

Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:20 pm Author: John Childs

I would deffo use flex face for the 9000 x 3000 sign.

For the rest an aluminium frame will be fine, although I won't use Panatrim under any circumstances. Much better to use a proper frame from the likes of http://www.kestrelsigns.com/signframe.htm

Yes, they cost more to buy but, if you take off the time it will take you to make a Panatrim frame, there isn't that much in it. A Kestel frame will also be a lot stronger and look much better than your Panatrim effort. You will also save in erection time.

Panels blowing out is a real danger, although less so with composite because there is no expansion and contraction opening up gaps to worry about. However, in those signs with joins, you will still need to pay careful attention to locking the panels together.

Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:40 pm Author: Lee Attewell

Alucobest comes in 1250mm x 3000 sheets mate. Nice composite material that we use a lot.

But looking at these sizes Banner flex face will be a great solution

Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:54 pm Author: Peter Dee

John Childs wrote:I would deffo use flex face for the 9000 x 3000 sign.

For the rest an aluminium frame will be fine, although I won't use Panatrim under any circumstances. Much better to use a proper frame from the likes of http://www.kestrelsigns.com/signframe.htm

Yes, they cost more to buy but, if you take off the time it will take you to make a Panatrim frame, there isn't that much in it. A Kestel frame will also be a lot stronger and look much better than your Panatrim effort. You will also save in erection time.

Panels blowing out is a real danger, although less so with composite because there is no expansion and contraction opening up gaps to worry about. However, in those signs with joins, you will still need to pay careful attention to locking the panels together.

I hear Viagra Frame is best for this application.

Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:52 pm Author: Stuart Green

LOL

As i only have a 30 inch machine, would it be possible to just cut the vinyl and then apply it to the flex face material?? i take it it is like banner material. Just trying to keep the work inhouse instead of subbing it out.

regards

Stu

Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:26 pm Author: John Childs

Stuart Green wrote:Just trying to keep the work inhouse instead of subbing it out.

I do appreciate that Stuart, but really you are better sending the file to Kestrel and letting them print direct to flexface material.

That's what did with my last (the only one) flex face sign. Then Kestrel delivered it direct to my customer's premises, so no transport worries.

Get the hire company to deliver the access equipment direct as well and all you have to do is to bowl up at the appointed time with a few hand tools and crack on with putting it up.

As long as you put a sensible mark-up on it all then you are still making money, but having a much easier life. And maybe leaving yourself free to chase up other work.

Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:18 pm Author: Stuart Green

by hire equipment i take it you mean i cant do this job with ladders and would need to hire a scissor lift??

Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:22 pm Author: Stuart Green

also how much would you charge for this kind of thing?? i am looking at 150% mark up on top of material and £250 for the install.

to less too much?? materials would cost me about £1000.00

Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:25 pm Author: John Childs

Stuart Green wrote:by hire equipment i take it you mean i cant do this job with ladders and would need to hire a scissor lift??

Dunno Stuart. How high is it going to be? What's the ground like underneath?

Perhaps what I should have said was that IF you need access equipment, then you could get it delivered direct.

I wouldn't want to put up signs of that size, whether flex, frame or Panatrim, many feet off the ground from ladders. A scissor lift is only of any use on fairly flat, level and solid ground.

A cherry picker would be by far the best choice although, if you had got plenty of time to waste, you could consider towers.

Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:32 pm Author: Stuart Green

the ground is quite flat and i would say about 25 feet high. IF I hired a cherry picker how much would you charge??

Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:35 pm Author: John Childs

Stuart Green wrote:also how much would you charge for this kind of thing?? i am looking at 150% mark up on top of material and £250 for the install.

You've got to calculate your own price, dependant on your own costs, labour rate etc.

But I would say that 150% mark-up is much too high. 50% would be plenty for me - that's £500 profit right there - and I would probably settle for a bit less.

On the other hand, of course I don't know the site and what will be involved, but I would say that £250 is way too low. I think you need to go through it step by step and work out a realistic idea of the time it will take, the number of men you will need, etc etc.

It sounds like this is the first job of this type you have done so the best advice I can give is that it will take you a lot longer than you think.

Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:47 pm Author: Stuart Green

then i guess £1900 would be about right as £1000.00 for materials, design time e.t.c 2 guys + scissor lift would be about £450. i could thn have £450 for myself.

shouldnt that be fair enough?? :roll:

Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:48 pm Author: John Childs

Stuart Green wrote:the ground is quite flat and i would say about 25 feet high. IF I hired a cherry picker how much would you charge??

There's no way I would fit signs that high from ladders.

As for cherry picker, the same theory applies. Find out what it will cost you, and put a mark-up on it.

Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:52 pm Author: John Dorling

Stuart you will need a cherry picker and a ladder too - for finding centre points etc. With signs this size I have either used composite panels butted together or banner flex track. For the really big stuff I would say banner is the only way to go but you would need at least one other person with you. I would say a cherry picker is also essential for this type of job but make sure its rated for at least a 225kg load as that size of banner will be heavy and you will want 2 people in the cage. Scissor lifts are great but only as John says if there is hard standing directly below the fitting area. Also allow for extras like diesel and transport costs if hiring a larger machine.

I would allow £400-£450 per day fitting for 2 blokes and a van including travel (within say 20 mile radius) plus the cherry picker hire costs, but that's based on my van and my labour costs so yours may vary.

Also, there are large format print companies who will be able to print the 9m x 3m cheaper than you could get the material for - in this instance it makes far more sense subbing out. Also, if using flex face I would get the company you buy the frame from to mitre the corners as this could save you untold hassle on site. I know its tempting to do all the work yourself, but if you can make as much money subbing it out then why give yourself the hassle?

John

Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:04 pm Author: John Childs

Stuart Green wrote:then i guess £1900 would be about right as £1000.00 for materials, design time e.t.c 2 guys + scissor lift would be about £450. i could thn have £450 for myself.

Your £450 is about 23% gross profit. If you are happy with that, then go for it. I don't reckon it's enough.

And I still think you are underestimating the time the job will take you.

John, if Stuart buys a flex face from Kestrel, or their like, it comes already built up, so it's just a matter of fixing to the building, installing the flex, then tensioning. Fast, fun and fumble free.

Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:46 pm Author: Ian Johnston

Stuart Green wrote:then i guess £1900 would be about right as £1000.00 for materials, design time e.t.c 2 guys + scissor lift would be about £450. i could thn have £450 for myself.

shouldnt that be fair enough??

are you wise??????

how long have you been in this game?

the price of this job should be near the 5K mark if not more!!!!!!
if done properly how you estimate 1K for all the materials if beyond me.

can you honestly tell me how you could manufacture, print / plot apply, load into van, hire a helper and install all of this for £900. never mind hire a scissor lift, ( although you probably haven't been trained)

if so your competition won't have to worry too long.

Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:26 pm Author: John Childs

Ian Johnston wrote:can you honestly tell me how you could manufacture, print / plot apply, load into van, hire a helper and install all of this for £900.

That's what I've been trying to make him understand Ian. Stuart is wildly underestimating the time this job will take him.

But, hey ho, we've all done it. I know I have, and learned from my mistakes.

Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:39 pm Author: Matty Goodwin

Just my input.......To hire a cherry picker/scissor lift you need/should hold an access license or your liability insurance will be not be covered.

Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:41 pm Author: Peter Normington

its just a pity that someone without a clue, gets the best advise from the boards, and without even subscribing to membership, yes I know we as a community are a willing to help bunch.
But Stuart will now have two choices,
charge the going rate and do a bad job, or do a good job cheap, either way no good for the industry,
I think Ians estimate is nearer reallity,
but I tend to keep my gob shut nowadays when newbies need advice, unless I can see they are really looking to take signage as a serious business, rather than a quick to get into, make a killing and get out of business.
Stuart nothing personal, I am just babbling in general terms.

Peter

Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:51 pm Author: Matty Goodwin

This ones for you Peter....
I'm a 'newbie' with over 23 years experience within the sign trade, as some of the Gold Members will verify.
I certainly see you point but surely if this forum is for established signmakers only then it should be subscription based only?
I personally couldn't see any reason to be bronze, silver or gold member apart from getting together at social/business gatherings!

Sorry Rob and all Members.... :cry:

Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:56 pm Author: Peter Normington

matty goodwin wrote:Just my input.......To hire a cherry picker/scissor lift you need/should hold an access license or your liability insurance will be not be covered.

Not quite true, it is desirable but not a fact,
if you have been given instructions how to use the machine, that is all that is needed to use a cherry picker, Having all the h&S certificates, is neither here nor there, you still require instructions on how to use a particular machine.
My liability insurance covers me to 25 metres,
In the event of a claim, as long as I had taken all precautions within reason
they they will pay out.
Its not like a driving license, that in law you must have to drive a car.

Having said that, you need to check your own policy to make sure you are covered

Peter

Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:12 am Author: John Childs

matty goodwin wrote:I certainly see you point but surely if this forum is for established signmakers only then it should be subscription based only?

That's a point that is often raised Matt.

I can see the point in allowing a wider entry, partly as an attempt to educate newcomers into not devaluing our trade, but also to encourage keen and serious newcomers.

That wider entry of course means that we also get the chancers too, and it then becomes a matter of personal choice as to who we choose to help.

Personally I would prefer that it be restricted to bona fide signmakers (including vinyl applicators

) but can understand and appreciate the reason why it is as it is.

Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:13 am Author: Kevin Flowers

Matt
as you stated you have been in the industry x amount of years, if you was asking a question it would show. Even if it was in a field you wasn't familiar with you would have some kind of clue. Being a newbie is not a newbie to the site but the industry like most on these boards i'm self taught & still learn on every job but i don't come on here an ask someone to specify materials, provide a pricing guide & what access equipment is needed. To expect that signs of those sizes at 25 foot can be fitted from a ladder does give an indication of the level of experience. There is a saying a little knowledge is dangerous, different members have helped by giving snippets of information for different areas - best materials, access equipment etc but what about the areas that haven't been discussed - fixings, wall structure etc. Does the question asker have enough experience to fill in these blanks in a competent manner. It may sound like i'm knocking the person but i ain't we all have to learn but a foundation is required for that learning

Kev

Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:14 am Author: Peter Normington

matty goodwin wrote:This ones for you Peter....
I'm a 'newbie' with over 23 years experience within the sign trade, as some of the Gold Members will verify.
I certainly see you point but surely if this forum is for established signmakers only then it should be subscription based only?
I personally couldn't see any reason to be bronze, silver or gold member apart from getting together at social/business gatherings!

Sorry Rob and all Members....

Matty.
Ignore me, I have only been in the trade for half of your time,
I was refering to "newbies" to the trade, not the boards.
just dont see why we should give away information to everyone that thinks they can take on a large job, without any prior experience.

The reason I make these comments:-
a few weeks ago, I had a call from an "entrepeneur" about supplying 40, 8 x 4 composite boards,
I quoted him to supply, and based on trade prices, that I would buy in and add a small mark up for arranging. he obviously knew nothing about signs, but I gave him quite a lot of advice. the signs have now been produced and fitted, but are really tat,

Print quality and layout looks like it was done by the boss's nephew.

Sorry, perhaps a rant here is not appropriate,

just answering your question

Peter

Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:19 am Author: Matty Goodwin

So if you took delivery of a cherry picker, took instructions how to 'drive' it and then drove it over rough ground carrying a 8' X 4' perspex sheet and ran it into the customers car your insurance would cover it?
Can I have their details please?
For me to cover my liability insurance for my fitting services, an access license was mandatory.
Has this gone of the subject now...? Sorry again Rob!

Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:23 am Author: Matty Goodwin

I apologise to all and take it all on board! Every time I post a reply 3 people have got in before me!

Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:29 am Author: Peter Normington

matty goodwin wrote:So if you took delivery of a cherry picker, took instructions how to 'drive' it and then drove it over rough ground carrying a 8' X 4' perspex sheet and ran it into the customers car your insurance would cover it?
Can I have their details please?
For me to cover my liability insurance for my fitting services, an access license was mandatory.
Has this gone of the subject now...? Sorry again Rob!

No because you did a stupid thing, but had you taken out collision waiver insurance then that would cover crashing into the car, that is road insurance as opposed to liability insurance, two different things

I am talking about a cherry picker that is used on the public highway though as opposed to a site machine,
My insurance doe not specify having a license for the equipment, other than is necessary by law,

Matty what license do you hold to operate a cherry picker?

I may need to look into this further

Peter

Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:31 am Author: John Childs

matty goodwin wrote:Every time I post a reply 3 people have got in before me!

Keep up Matt. *rofl*

Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:52 am Author: Matty Goodwin

to John...I had to get a beer!...
To Peter...its IPAF operator training certificate, for operating scissor lifts and self propelled boom machinery.
www.ipaf.org
I needed it to work on aircraft not drive to Tescos!!

Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:56 am Author: Peter Normington

matty goodwin wrote:to John...I had to get a beer!...
To Peter...its IPAF operator training certificate, for operating scissor lifts and self propelled boom machinery.
www.ipaf.org
I needed it to work on aircraft not drive to Tescos!!

Mat ipaf Is not obligatory, just a requirement if you work for certain companies, it cost £175 and a days training.

Peter

Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:13 am Author: Matty Goodwin

I know...I paid. It was a matter of course for the job I was on.
Original thread was about BIG SIGNS and I think now he now has food for thought...
Talking of which....Im having me diner! No, babies up, have it later!

Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:31 pm Author: Stuart Green

WOW!! lots of good advice and misconceptions there. I am a serious signmaker, trying to make a living. i have an sp300, many years of design experience and apart from printing want to get in to the signmaking part of things. i have done quite a few signs but never had to quote for such a large job. hence the question. i was off. well off actually which i have learnt through advice on here thanks to john and now have a more accurate quote talking to people and suppliers (which i am happy to share). its about 25-30% markup and as follows:

3000x1500 £650
6000x1500 £880
3000x600 £340

flex face 9000x3000 £2220

intall+equipment £2100

total is £6190.00

seriuos signmaker always learning. sometimes its just better to ask and learn!!

Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:40 pm Author: John Childs

Stuart Green wrote:sometimes its just better to ask and learn!!

Something my dad taught me: It's good to learn from your mistakes. It's even better to learn from somebody else's.

Anyways, I'm glad you've taken the advice on board.

Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:48 pm Author: Stuart Green

thanks john

Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:03 pm Author: Ian Johnston

Stuart Green wrote:WOW!! lots of good advice and misconceptions there. I am a serious signmaker, trying to make a living. i have an sp300, many years of design experience and apart from printing want to get in to the signmaking part of things. i have done quite a few signs but never had to quote for such a large job. hence the question. i was off. well off actually which i have learnt through advice on here thanks to john and now have a more accurate quote talking to people and suppliers (which i am happy to share). its about 25-30% markup and as follows:

3000x1500 £650
6000x1500 £880
3000x600 £340

flex face 9000x3000 £2220

intall+equipment £2100

total is £6190.00

seriuos signmaker always learning. sometimes its just better to ask and learn!!

that's better, £ 6367.74 would have been my exact quote.

sense prevales

Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:22 pm Author: Stuart Green

Thanks Ian

Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:34 pm Author: Ian Johnston

Stuart Green wrote:Thanks Ian

£14 sq/ft is a good basis for future reference Stuart, the unfortunate part is it also was a good basis 12 yrs ago aswell ell. before everyone started doing signs at silly money

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