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did vinyl and sunlight crack our glass?

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Laura Noble

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Post Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:48 am

did vinyl and sunlight crack our glass?

we have a 2mx2m laminated glass shop front. We have vinyl strips applied advertising our shows which change every 2 months, we've been using these blocks of vinyl with letters cut out since May.
In September the glass developed a big crack for no apparent reason and we had to replace it and replace the vinyl.
The following week the new glass cracked again in a similar place.
Our glaziers stated that the crack was due to 'thermal break' where the sun shines on the glass and the strip of laminate heats up and the temperature rise causes the glass to crack.
Has anyone heard of this? can anyone confirm the validity of this?
we're now replacing the window with toughened glass as we've been advised that this won't crack under the above conditions. feeling very out of pocket and worried that we'll never really know the root cause of the breaks. :( any advice much appreciated.
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Brian Little

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Post Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:53 am

i have heard of this happening before especially if the window has been covered in black or dark colour that does not reflect the heat im sure there is posts on the boards somewhere

Brian
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Peter Munday

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Post Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:54 am

Yes it does happen see the following link. https://www.uksignboards.com/viewtopic.p ... highlight=

Peter
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Andy Gorman

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Post Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:58 am

You won't get a definitive answer here as there are many factors to consider. If you suspect the vinyl is to blame you should speak to your signmaker and ask them to investigate.

I take it you are not a signmaker? :-?
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Bob Scullion

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Post Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:47 pm

Yes its possible to cause the glass to crack by installing film or vinyl, usually if its installed internally.

The problem is that dark film or vinyl will absorb heat, this then dissepates through the glass, if the laminated glass has any small flaws, shells or existing cracks behind the rubber gasket at the edge of the glass this can cause whats called a thermal stress fracture.

When we install film, if its laminated glass over 1mtr x 1mtr we always advise and external grade film as this reflects the heat before the glass has the chance to absorb it.

The problem with dark vinyl is that it does'nt really matter if its internal or external, it will still absorb energy/heat, especially if its in direct sunlight/south facing.

Bob

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Bob Scullion

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Post Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:05 am

Laura

With regards to replacing it with toughened glass you should be aware of the safety factors required. Although toughened glass is more difficult to break, when it does it shatters and therefore can be a hazard to both customers and employees not to mention your property itself.

The Glass should have a safety film applied to prevent the glass from spreading in the event of breakage to reduce injury and damage.

Best to ask your glazier whats acceptable especially as its afairly large piece of glass. I am sure it has to be a certain thickness dependant on size and location.

Bob
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Lee Attewell

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Post Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:35 am

I'll have to be quick as I'm flat out.

Here's it in a nutshell.

All glass is subject to thermal expansion when it gets heated by the sun. The biggest thing you have to look out for are the glass types (laminated, toughened or float) and also the glass thickness. We have problems here mainly during winter and usually in the mornings on East facing glass. What happens is that glass in the morning is really cold. When the sun comes up, the glass gets heated. If there's a shadow across the glass caused by a tree, fence, pole whatever, that shadowed part of the glass stays cold so you've got part of the glass in full sun (warm) part of the glass in shade (cold) and the stress is usually on the shadow line.

This is exacerbated by having dark colours applied to the glass which attracts more heat due to absorption and makes the difference between hot and cold even more.

Rule of thumb: Laminated glass you should always be careful what you put on it with regards to thermal cracking. This glass has to be installed in the frame without any chips to the edges, if there's a chip inside the frame, this makes a very weak point and can crack there.

Think about what Laminated glass is made up of, two pieces of glass "glued" together with a see through layer of soft plastic in between. It's easy for one side to be hot while the other side is insulated and cold.

Tempered or toughened glass is pretty much ok to do whatever you want to unless it's already tinted. This glass is designed to break into small popcorn sized pieces which means that you're not easily cut if the glass shatters.

Float glass (most house glass in Australia) breaks in shards. This glass is the one that sometimes needs to have security film applied (we do a lot of this in child care centres).

If I can find the necessary info, I'll post up a link for you to have a look at.


Lee - (window tinter for the past 26 years)
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Ian Johnston

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Post Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:45 am

Andy Gorman wrote:You won't get a definitive answer here as there are many factors to consider. If you suspect the vinyl is to blame you should speak to your signmaker and ask them to investigate.

I take it you are not a signmaker? :-?


that what i was thinking too andy!!!

someone trying to get a blame put on their signmaker :evil:
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Brian Little

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Post Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:48 pm

Lee Attewell wrote:I'll have to be quick as I'm flat out.

Here's it in a nutshell.

All glass is subject to thermal expansion when it gets heated by the sun. The biggest thing you have to look out for are the glass types (laminated, toughened or float) and also the glass thickness. We have problems here mainly during winter and usually in the mornings on East facing glass. What happens is that glass in the morning is really cold. When the sun comes up, the glass gets heated. If there's a shadow across the glass caused by a tree, fence, pole whatever, that shadowed part of the glass stays cold so you've got part of the glass in full sun (warm) part of the glass in shade (cold) and the stress is usually on the shadow line.

This is exacerbated by having dark colours applied to the glass which attracts more heat due to absorption and makes the difference between hot and cold even more.

Rule of thumb: Laminated glass you should always be careful what you put on it with regards to thermal cracking. This glass has to be installed in the frame without any chips to the edges, if there's a chip inside the frame, this makes a very weak point and can crack there.

Think about what Laminated glass is made up of, two pieces of glass "glued" together with a see through layer of soft plastic in between. It's easy for one side to be hot while the other side is insulated and cold.

Tempered or toughened glass is pretty much ok to do whatever you want to unless it's already tinted. This glass is designed to break into small popcorn sized pieces which means that you're not easily cut if the glass shatters.

Float glass (most house glass in Australia) breaks in shards. This glass is the one that sometimes needs to have security film applied (we do a lot of this in child care centres).

If I can find the necessary info, I'll post up a link for you to have a look at.


Lee - (window tinter for the past 26 years)




excellent lee worth prntng out for future ref :D
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Laura Noble

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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:41 pm

:D I wanted to say a big thank you to all who responded to my plea for information and advice, it helped a lot.
the glazers called in an independent investigator (glass specialist) who watched them take out and replace the window. We had it replaced with toughened glass and the independent report stated that the vinyl and the temperature caused thermal breaks in the glass. So, lots of detective work and we have an answer.
Thank you again for all expert advice, much appreciated :D
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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:34 pm

I take it you are not a signmaker?

+2, are you a sign maker?
Inquiring minds want to know.
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Vic Adair

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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:07 pm

So, who would pay for the replacement glass?? :o
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John Childs

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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:55 pm

Vic wrote:So, who would pay for the replacement glass?? :o

I don't know what the legal profession would have to say about it, but my opinion would be that if the signmaker just did it, then he should be responsible.

On the other hand, if he did it after advising Laura that the glass might crack, but she insisted on having it done anyway, then she is responsible.

Another example of why we need signed disclaimers to protect ourselves. :(
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Faisal Ali

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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:44 pm

Laura, can I ask why have you posted this question on a signmaker's forum and what do you plan to do next? What have you learnt?
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Andy Gorman

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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:10 pm

I'd still like to know if Laura is a signmaker.

It's just that I thought this was a signmaker's forum.
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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:04 pm

Andy Gorman wrote:I'd still like to know if Laura is a signmaker.

It's just that I thought this was a signmaker's forum.


Nah. That's all changed whilst you have been away,
anyone can join.

Peter
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Karl Williams

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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:06 pm

Comes across to me like you're trying to gain ammunition to throw back at your signmaker. Am I wrong?
As said above, I thought this site was for signmakers only. Maybe Rob needs to look once more as to who is being let on here. :-?
Also I'd like to know how the glazier can guarantee it was down to the vinyls.
Sounds a load of b******s to me. I've been in this game nearly 20 years and never had this happen or heard of it before.
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Warren Beard

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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:09 pm

If they are not signmakers I doubt you will see them again unless the glass breaks again or they have any other sign related issues, if they are signmakers I'm sure they will be back to explain themselves.
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Andy Gorman

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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:36 pm

I have had it happen twice in 21 years, Karl. Both times the glass had badly cut, chipped edges before it was fitted. I was aware of the potential problems associated with dark vinyls on glass.

That's irrelevent - the subject of more interest to me is whether customers are coming on here and 'checking up on us'. :-?
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Karl Williams

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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:02 pm

Andy Gorman wrote:
That's irrelevent - the subject of more interest to me is whether customers are coming on here and 'checking up on us'. :-?



Maybe Rob can tell us what occupation she put down when registering.
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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:00 pm

Actually I dont think he can, data protection act etc.

Peter
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Robert Lambie

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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:09 pm

as peter says, i honestly cant... and i wouldn't anyway. too much at stake guys...

what i can say is, her details are 100% and from the name of her business... although doesn't include the word signs/graphics... there is a connection. so I'm afraid ill really need to leave it at that... maybe Laura will come forward and clear this up. as she hasnt broke any rules and been nothing but open, not much i can do... so her choice... sorry.
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Martin Pearson

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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:20 pm

Although I would like to hear a little more from laura I would be more interested in knowing what sort of qualifications the " Specialist Company" had, how they assessed the information they had been given, what tests they carried out and what evidence they have for their conclusions.

Like Lee has already said in the instances I have read about although the vinyl was probably a contributing factor it wasn't totally to blame for the glass cracking, there has always been something else like a damaged edge to the glass which has also contributed.
Be interesting to see pictures of the window as well as it is difficult to know what sort of coverage there was and what colours have been used.
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Robert Lambie

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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:23 pm

very true martin... would be interested myself mate.

if nothing else, this thread IS bringing a little bit more thought/awareness of issues like this that can and do happen. that being the case... its worth having on the boards. :D
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Martin Pearson

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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:32 pm

Trouble is Robert it is going to make more flippin paperwork if we are all now going to have to get the customer to sign a disclaimer against potential breaks in windows everytime we fit some graphics.

Is this going to apply only to graphics fitted directly to windows or am i going to get a call from a customer I sold some Christmas self cling stickers to :lol1: :lol1:
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John Childs

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Post Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:03 am

Don't waste your breath guys.

I reckon Laura is just a disgruntled customer who has has a problem, and is looking to place the blame, and the cost of rectification, onto someone else.

I'll be happy to be proved wrong, but I'll bet a pound to a pinch of pigshit that we never see her again. :-?
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Stuart Miller

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Post Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:00 pm

As window tinters we are aware of this and have to cope with it on every job.
All our films have the solar energy absorption figures supplied and we also have "Film To Glass Application Check Lists" supplied by the manufacturers which should be completed before every job. These incorporate all the factors Bob has mentioned. The darker the film / vinyl the more absorption of solar energy and more likely for the glass to heat up.

It may be not just the heating of the glass but thermal stress is more likely when the glass is heated unevenly by either shading such as a tree or the corner of a building. All these factors are included in our report. Especially what we call initial shading. This is when the sun first hits the glazing in the morning when the glass is cool and heats only a part of the window causing thermal stress between different parts of the same pane.

Type of glass and size play a major part.
In the window film trade if the tolerances are kept within manufacturers limits then they will usually warranty the glass against the film causing breakage.

However even if the film has caused an increase in the thermal stress the film manufacturers can usually show by inspection by microscope that the crack initiated from a pre-existing micro crack at the edge of the glass which was caused by the glaziers on installation or cutting of the window, and so sidestep any warranty that the film caused the crack. If the crack was already there then there is the potential that the glass could possibly spontaneously crack at any time without anything applied. As panes get bigger there is a limit when this is highly likely.

Laminated glass on shop windows can increase the likelyhood of this happening as you have two layers of glass with potential micro cracks around the edge bonded together which will then heat up a different temperatures before anything else is applied to the glass.
Toughened glass avoids this problem as the heat treatment seals the edges and removes these micro cracks.

I am amazed that in the sign trade so many people are not aware of these issues and apply quite dark vinyl onto glass without checking and warning the customer. Vinyl can be worse than window film as it is often dark shades and is applied in uneven patterns, so increasing the likelyhood of thermal stress.
We test all glass before applying anything to determine if float, laminated or toughened and then give appropriate advise.
Stuart
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Hugh Potter

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Post Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:41 pm

a good, qualified sounding and interesting reply Stuart, thanks,

what you're basically saying then is that if it's not toughened glass, it's more likely to be a failure caused by micro cracks that are aggrivated by thermal stresses from films applied to the surface?

I always explain to customers that dark films could possibly cause failures and recommend they always stick with light colours or accept the possible consequences, never had a fail yet (touch wood!).

i would suggest that not all tinters are as consciencious as yourself though, i got a tinter in to do a job a few years back, gave him the measurements etc and he turned up the day i fitted a facia, no checks, just applied and left!

Hugh
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Stuart Miller

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Post Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:14 pm

Yes Hugh, The Vinyl / film may have caused increased thermal stress but the cracks will usually already be there hidden at the edges.
Therefore although the addition of the graphics may increase the stress it is quite straightforward under testing to show the glass was actually defective before installation. Always do as you say and warn the client.

I may have been a bit strict in my initial post to emphasise the point. As long as you are aware and know your film specifications then it may not be neccessary to pre-test every glass.
Films with an absorbtion factor of less than 35% will usually be automatically pre-approved for installation.

The very common Silver reflective films usually fall into this range and therefore can be safely installed to most glazing without a test. I always like to know the type of glass being worked on, and as the test takes 30 secs with a meter, giving type and thickness then it is not a problem.
It is also not always possible to tell a films absorbtion spec by looking so a spec sheet needs to be studied.
However once the window is above a certain size I would still be calling my film rep for confirmation.

However for vinyl the absorbtion figures are not readily at hand so as you say stick to lighter colours and warn the client.
Stuart
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Brian Little

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Post Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:02 pm

right lads thats enough........ill get the rope....theres a nice big tree here lets go round lauras house :D
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Post Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:17 pm

A few years back, I was asked to blacken out all of the front windows of a U.S.C shop in Edinburgh, We were supplied with a black removable vinyl for the job. It was on the glass for the duration of the campaign about 2 months.
When we removed it we found two of the windows had cracked, these windows were approx 4mtr x 6mtr plate glass.The manager of the store was not too happy, but there was no proof that the vinyl or the fitters were responsible, and it was put down to drunks on Princess street.

So now I know what may have happened, for the future
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Vic Adair

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Post Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:37 am

Quick question. is the glass in the uk a different spec to say the glass in Australia, because surely the heat here is no where near as hot as there. So is it really a heat problem or would it be something to do with glass fitted too tightly to the frame at points and say damaged edges.
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Lee Attewell

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Post Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:41 am

I'd say that 3mm float glass is the same whether it's here or there mate. The building codes have just been changed (last year I think) where the minimum glass thickness is 5mm. this has created a hassle for old style aluminium frames which are only made to accept 3mm glass. My Glazier mates have had lots of fun :-)

Actually you guys would have to be careful because of double glazing systems that are common in Europe and not too common in aus.

of course glass has to be installed correctly in the frame with lots of room and good soft supports to allow for movement in the frame so a good installer is really important as well.
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Brian Little

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Post Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:48 am

Stevie Henderson wrote:A few years back, I was asked to blacken out all of the front windows of a U.S.C shop in Edinburgh, We were supplied with a black removable vinyl for the job. It was on the glass for the duration of the campaign about 2 months.
When we removed it we found two of the windows had cracked, these windows were approx 4mtr x 6mtr plate glass.The manager of the store was not too happy, but there was no proof that the vinyl or the fitters were responsible, and it was put down to drunks on Princess street.

So now I know what may have happened, for the future





so what your actually saying Stevie is that you managed to park in inner Edinburgh to do a job !!!!!!!!!!! oh come on your having a giraffe :D :D
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Vic Adair

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Post Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:15 pm

Andy Gorman wrote:I'd still like to know if Laura is a signmaker.

It's just that I thought this was a signmaker's forum.


It started off that way :) [/quote]
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Vic Adair

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Post Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:15 pm

Peter Normington wrote:
Andy Gorman wrote:I'd still like to know if Laura is a signmaker.

It's just that I thought this was a signmaker's forum.


Nah. That's all changed whilst you have been away,
anyone can join.

Peter


TOO TRUE!! :(
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Stuart Miller

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Post Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:00 pm

Stevie it is quite likely that 4m x 6m panes would crack if covered by black vinyl as those are large panes.

Vic: I think glass is pretty much the same anywhere and yes we are lucky in the UK that we don't get the temperatures of Australia or the States where they do experience far more thermal stress fractures. The Tinting forum I frequent where there are a lot of american tinters have far more instances than we do here. As I mentioned before the cracks are usually present in the edges of Float Glass which is also called Annealed glass before installation. Most often caused by the way this type of glass is cut. Glaziers score it and then snap it so causing a multitude of microscopic cracks along the sides. I guess the tightness of the fit may contribute but it is mainly just the existance of these cracks which are all a potential source of spontaneous cracking. The larger the pane the more likely the stresses in the glass may propogate one of these cracks. The more temperature difference within areas of the same pane will also increase the stresses and propogate a crack. It is almost impossible to say what may have caused the crack to propogate as they can go at any time for any reason and while size and heat differences increase the likelyhood of it happeneing they are not the root cause.
Also if the temperature is greater but even accross the whole pane as in hotter climates then the stresses in the glass may not be eneven and so not cause the cracks to propogate. The biggest cause is eneven increases in temperature which may come from sun hitting half of a shaded window first thing in the morning when most of the glass is cold, or film and vinyl only covering part of a window,

Laminated glass can be made from either annealed glass or toughened glass but I have so far always found it annealed which increases the problem as there are two layers which already have a temperature difference from internal to external causing stresses before film or vinyl is added.

Also thick glass is actually more likely to suffer from thermal stress fracture to thin glass as the temperature difference is greater from internal to external as well.
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Jan Storgaard

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Post Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:44 am

Re: did vinyl and sunlight crack our glass?

Laura Noble wrote:we have a 2mx2m laminated glass shop front. We have vinyl strips applied advertising our shows which change every 2 months, we've been using these blocks of vinyl with letters cut out since May.
In September the glass developed a big crack for no apparent reason and we had to replace it and replace the vinyl.
The following week the new glass cracked again in a similar place.
Our glaziers stated that the crack was due to 'thermal break' where the sun shines on the glass and the strip of laminate heats up and the temperature rise causes the glass to crack.
Has anyone heard of this? can anyone confirm the validity of this?
we're now replacing the window with toughened glass as we've been advised that this won't crack under the above conditions. feeling very out of pocket and worried that we'll never really know the root cause of the breaks. :( any advice much appreciated.


Hi Laura, thermal breaks is valid. We do alot of tinting with 3M and SolarGard films. And the first thing we do is "measuring" the window to establish what type it is, and what filmtype to use.

Some windows can only have tints on outside because of the doubling heat effect you get if mounting inside, and you are at risk of overheating the glass and get a thermal crack.

Try google "thermal break" and youll have tons of pages to explain the deeper secrets.

Sry 4 my bad english ;o)

Jan

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