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deposit, design or , design, deposit???

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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:42 pm

deposit, design or , design, deposit???

how do fellow signmakers deal with customers? is it better to take the deposit and then do the design or the other way round??

thank you! :P
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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:55 pm

Always, always, deposit first.
That shows they are serious about your design.
Love....Jill
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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:01 pm

deposit first or you will spend you time working for nothing!

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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:33 pm

I have to disagree,
If I wanted wanted to buy anything, I would want to see what I was getting, before giving a deposit.

You are presuming that a customer will give a deposit to several signmakers, rather than shopping around?

Dont give your artwork away though, that is a different thing

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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:57 pm

i agree to a degree peter...

give them the price first though.
if they accept the price "then" talk about ideas for creating their artwork.

once they agree on a ball-park figure, by all means show them the design "on screen" but never give them it or email them it. if they want a copy then they pay 25% minimum for the layout, which will be deducted from the overall price when paid.

to be honest, the above is for general fascia and sign layouts in vector format... by that i mean "quick designs" start going the digital route and its deposit up front. you simply cannot design artwork for hours on end on the promise of a sign. i just think that's a bad business exercise...
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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:06 pm

Peter I understand the point you are making and would agree with you if we were talking about buying a new lawn mower, or a second hand car. Unfortunately you cannot apply this rule to design work or you will simply be working for nothing every time !

Try going to a design agency and asking for a bunch of concepts for a new logo. . . and then mention that you won't pay anything until you've seen if you like the concepts they have come up with ! ! !

Go to a Web designer, ask them to build a complete new and bespoke site from scratch. . . btw I'm not even paying a deposit until I've seen what it looks like !


Potential customers should be able to make an informed decision of your abilities and what their finished product may look like by viewing a good portfolio !

Deposit first then Design !
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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:19 pm

Lawn mower, sign or web page, its still a product. I would not spend hours on a design, but at least give the customer a concept before asking for a deposit, and an estimate for creating or modifying what they require.
Big corporates will pay design agencies to create visuals for their approval.
Unfortunately most of my clients are small business's and asking for a deposit before doing anything would simply loose their custom.
to me it is like a double glazing firm asking for a deposit before they measure up.

Just my opinion,

Peter
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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:30 pm

I don't even turn on my computer without a deposit.
If they like my work around town, and they like the work on my site, that should be enough.
I do give a price, if they want me to do the job they give a deposit.
I do not like to work for free.
And to have them watching over my shoulder while I throw a few ideas at them is like going to a restaurant and having the chef give you a few samples in the kitchen before you will buy a meal.
:wink:
Sometimes I will hand-draw a few quick thumbnail sketches while we are talking in person. That's about it tho.
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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:32 pm

Peter Normington wrote:I have to disagree,
If I wanted wanted to buy anything, I would want to see what I was getting, before giving a deposit.

You are presuming that a customer will give a deposit to several signmakers, rather than shopping around?

Dont give your artwork away though, that is a different thing

peter


Hi Peter,

When I ask for a deposit, I'm not assuming that they are giving a few sign makers a deposit. I'm assuming they have come to me with a serious enquiry by asking for a deposit this is how I find out whether they are serious if they say they are shopping about I will not do any work I will give them a price yes but no artwork I don't work for free. If they shop about and accept my price then I will do a layout.

If asking for a deposit is going to lose the customer its a customer I would not want. Why would asking for a deposit scare off a serious customer this is exactly the attitude/response I'm looking for more than wanting money up front? I only do this with new customers not existing!

Asking numerous sign co's to do layouts is sort of like going into a restaurant and ordering everything on the menu and picking one meal when it arrives. This is a metaphor I use when customers ask me for a 'few ideas!'

When you go out for a meal do you go to various restaurants asking for samples before you decide where to eat?

Nigel
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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:37 pm

Nigel Hindley wrote:
Peter Normington wrote:I have to disagree,
If I wanted wanted to buy anything, I would want to see what I was getting, before giving a deposit.

You are presuming that a customer will give a deposit to several signmakers, rather than shopping around?

Dont give your artwork away though, that is a different thing

peter


Hi Peter,

When I ask for a deposit, I'm not assuming that they are giving a few sign makers a deposit. I'm assuming they have come to me with a serious enquiry by asking for a deposit this is how I find out whether they are serious if they say they are shopping about I will not do any work I will give them a price yes but no artwork I don't work for free. If they shop about and accept my price then I will do a layout.

If asking for a deposit is going to lose the customer its a customer I would not want. Why would asking for a deposit scare off a serious customer this is exactly the attitude/response I'm looking for more than wanting money up front? I only do this with new customers not existing!

Asking numerous sign co's to do layouts is sort of like going into a restaurant and ordering everything on the menu and picking one meal when it arrives. This is a metaphor I use when customers ask me for a 'few ideas!'

When you go out for a meal do you go to various restaurants asking for samples before you decide where to eat?

Nigel


Nigel I think your metaphor is untangible
I have never been to a restaurant that asked for a deposit before I ate!

Peter
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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:49 pm

Nigel Hindley wrote:...Asking numerous sign co's to do layouts is sort of like going into a restaurant and ordering everything on the menu and picking one meal when it arrives. This is a metaphor I use when customers ask me for a 'few ideas!'

When you go out for a meal do you go to various restaurants asking for samples before you decide where to eat?

Nigel
Conversely, do you go into a random restaurant, hand over your cash and hope that what the serve up is edible?

Any 'specialist' shop that values it's clients WILL give tasters, samples and examples to 'buy' trust, loyalty and seal a sale by their confidence in the product and willingness to at least demonstrate it.

My local cheese shop will cut me samples from any number of cheeses so I don't 'waste' my money on something I don't like. Even the deli at Sainsbury's will let you sample something if you ask nicely on the hope of a sale.

Most of the time I can just describe my concept and it's enough, other times it'll need a rough on-screen concept done...and for the higher value jobs - it may be a virtually a 'tender' to get the work involving full, complete artwork.
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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:51 pm

Peter that's because you don't go into restaurants and ask for free samples? or maybe you do? If you did or it was common how long before restaurants started asking for a deposit. Its a perfectly tangible metaphor and you proved it - Restaurants don't ask for a deposit because folk don't go in looking for free samples!
Last edited by Nigel Hindley on Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:55 pm

David Rogers wrote:
Nigel Hindley wrote:...Asking numerous sign co's to do layouts is sort of like going into a restaurant and ordering everything on the menu and picking one meal when it arrives. This is a metaphor I use when customers ask me for a 'few ideas!'

When you go out for a meal do you go to various restaurants asking for samples before you decide where to eat?

Nigel
Conversely, do you go into a random restaurant, hand over your cash and hope that what the serve up is edible?

Any 'specialist' shop that values it's clients WILL give tasters, samples and examples to 'buy' trust, loyalty and seal a sale by their confidence in the product and willingness to at least demonstrate it.

My local cheese shop will cut me samples from any number of cheeses so I don't 'waste' my money on something I don't like. Even the deli at Sainsbury's will let you sample something if you ask nicely on the hope of a sale.

Most of the time I can just describe my concept and it's enough, other times it'll need a rough on-screen concept done...and for the higher value jobs - it may be a virtually a 'tender' to get the work involving full, complete artwork.


So David a complete stranger walks through your door and ask you to design something - you say fine no problem no idea who they are no deposit or even if they will come back?
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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:09 pm

Nigel Hindley wrote:...So David a complete stranger walks through your door and ask you to design something - you say fine no problem no idea who they are no deposit or even if they will come back?
No, I'm just damn good at selling myself, my product, my artwork & I engender confidence in them so they DON'T go elsewhere 99% of the time.

If I do the design...I get the job nearly every single time...don't you?

It's all about the service...I may not be the best designer...but they leave feeling that they have / will get exactly what is best for them.

I lose maybe one in 100 jobs that i did artwork for never to see them again - no big loss...20mins down the tubes...no wait...that's a 'free' design I can re-jig in 10 mins for the next customer...
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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:12 pm

Nigel, I think you may be missing the point, we all agree that we do not give artwork away, but you must be able to demonstrate to a potential customer the type of thing he is looking for. by at least doing a basic layout based on the info they give you.
The cost of this is spread out over your hourly rate, some you win some you loose.
We all can all suss out time wasters, most people are not, they are looking for a product, and part of that process is comparing different suppliers.
if your first question is asking for a deposit, then you are telling them to go elsewhere,

just my opinion

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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:24 pm

David Rogers wrote:
Nigel Hindley wrote:...So David a complete stranger walks through your door and ask you to design something - you say fine no problem no idea who they are no deposit or even if they will come back?
No, I'm just damn good at selling myself, my product, my artwork & I engender confidence in them so they DON'T go elsewhere 99% of the time.

If I do the design...I get the job nearly every single time...don't you?

It's all about the service...I may not be the best designer...but they leave feeling that they have / will get exactly what is best for them.

I lose maybe one in 100 jobs that i did artwork for never to see them again - no big loss...20mins down the tubes...no wait...that's a 'free' design I can re-jig in 10 mins for the next customer...


Have to say i agree with you,
if a customer walks away from the job it's usually at the first stage of artwork, so just look on the positive side and adapt the design for someone else in the future, plus it's good practice.

If you make the design good enough the customer usually wants it, you do get time wasters, but even after a short while in business, you get a sense of who is worth your time. I have asked for a deposit if i am unsure of the customer on the odd occasion.

You may get time wasters but you have to balance that risk with loosing business due to some people who would not be willing to pay a deposit.

Liam
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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:35 pm

Peter,

We discuss project with customer, give them a price as soon as is possible discuss materials turnaround and show them a portfolio. They ask us to go ahead with a layout and we say we dont any do any work until we receive a deposit. We have never had anyone refuse we normally get comments like 'very wise', 'no problem' or 'ill pay the whle lot now if you want' The other advantage of taking a deposit means the balance is less and gets paid quicker because of this. It works for us so this is my advice - deposit first then design.

Each to his own, the strange thing for us is we have 2 shops and its only one we need to ask for a deposit. This is purely because a large number of folk simply didn't come back ie they were not serious just had some time to kill - and after spending an hour to 2 hours doing something the problem is then how much time do we spend chasing them leaving messages in order to try and get back the growing number of hours spent in one week we did around 8 hours over 6 customers - never saw them again this is when we started taking deposits.

We started taking deposits and the problem disappeared, if the customer dosnt come back we have at least got enough money to cover the time spent and dont have to phone them the onus is on them as they have spent money and 'commited' to the project the turnaround of the job is usually quicker as they want to get what they have paid for quick;ly, this suits us it narks us when a customer is slow to come and look at artwork etc. Taking a deposit reduces the turnaround.

If we asked for a deposit and someone said no id ask why? I would have no problem whatsoever with leaving a deposit for this type of work. We try and keep our prices keen and that means not having a member of staff working for a day a week for the customer not to come back and I pay my staff pretty well so it narks me.

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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:46 pm

David Rogers wrote:
Nigel Hindley wrote:...So David a complete stranger walks through your door and ask you to design something - you say fine no problem no idea who they are no deposit or even if they will come back?
No, I'm just damn good at selling myself, my product, my artwork & I engender confidence in them so they DON'T go elsewhere 99% of the time.

If I do the design...I get the job nearly every single time...don't you?

It's all about the service...I may not be the best designer...but they leave feeling that they have / will get exactly what is best for them.

I lose maybe one in 100 jobs that i did artwork for never to see them again - no big loss...20mins down the tubes...no wait...that's a 'free' design I can re-jig in 10 mins for the next customer...



We have an excellent reputation all round and are extremely busy all the time and dont see the need or have the time to have to do work for free to impress customers we have more than enough work with repeat customers and customers willing to pay a deposit.

The psychology of taking a deposit shows - you are not desperate and confident in your ability. Its irrelevant you saying 'I get the job every time i do the design' - we get the job every time before we start usually because we are good at selling ourselves/reputation/portfolio. So why start doing layouts without a deposit when you dont need to?


Nigel
Last edited by Nigel Hindley on Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:50 pm

I'm not sure there is a right and wrong answer to this, it works for some people it doesn't work for others, it's been discussed a few times on the forum and always the same answers.

I just wish I was as good at selling myself and what I do as Dave is. To get that sort of return is outstanding.

OK I am not a salesman and never will be but I am confident in the products I sell and I don't believe I am the worst designer in the world but I continually get asked to do jobs as cheaply as possible and if I had done 2 designs for a customer a lot of them would pick the cheapest option despite the fact that by spending a bit more they will have a much better profile and probably attract a lot more work themselves.

A lot of people are just asking about to find the cheapest price and don't seem to be interested in quality at all, even if you don't give the customer a printout to take away once they have seen a design it is reasonably easy to remember enough of it to get someone else to do it cheaper, especially if certain parts stand out.

Oh just for the record I don't charge a deposit before I do any artwork but quite often I wish I did.
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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:51 pm

Nigel I have tried to explain excactly what you are saying, you are doing work and using your time to explain to a customer what you are offering, so design takes time, just the same, time is money, I have no problem agreeing, if the customer is serious, then yes I do not proceed without a deposit but I dont ask for a deposit without some sort of presentation or even an idea of what the customer will get.
Its part of the selling process, I would not put a deposit on a car without a test drive, even though I could choose another dealer,


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Post Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:57 pm

Peter Normington wrote:Nigel I have tried to explain excactly what you are saying, you are doing work and using your time to explain to a customer what you are offering, so design takes time, just the same, time is money, I have no problem agreeing, if the customer is serious, then yes I do not proceed without a deposit but I dont ask for a deposit without some sort of presentation or even an idea of what the customer will get.
Its part of the selling process, I would not put a deposit on a car without a test drive, even though I could choose another dealer,


Peter


Well we are saying the same thing then i am happy!! I never said we didn't discuss, show samples, fully explain and charm the customer tell them what what will happen explain turnaround etc we just don't design anything. By this time customer is happy to pay whatever we ask!

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Post Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:06 am

Nigel Hindley wrote:We discuss project with customer, give them a price as soon as is possible discuss materials turnaround and show them a portfolio. They ask us to go ahead with a layout and we say we dont any do any work until we receive a deposit. We have never had anyone refuse we normally get comments like 'very wise', 'no problem' or 'ill pay the whle lot now if you want' The other advantage of taking a deposit means the balance is less and gets paid quicker because of this. It works for us so this is my advice - deposit first then design.

Nigel


This is how I work with any new customers. Existing customers with a track record are treated differently, but anyone new gets asked for a deposit. This roots out the timewasters and price shoppers.

Only a couple of days ago I had a new enquiry asking me for a price to do a van. I was shown a printout (complete with copyright notice) and asked for a price to reproduce this. I politely explained that the design had a copyright notice - and so I was unable to copy it. He left saying I must be busy if I could afford to turn down work and that he was only giving me an "opportunity" to quote.

Some people just don't get it :roll:

I emailed the company in question and told them of the enquiry I had received. It would have been nice to have had an aknowledgment but I never heard back from them.
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Post Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:10 am

I am probably making assumptions but the original poster probably doesn't have the large portfolio or solid reputation that you do Nigel (no disrespect to original poster, i was just assuming that as you asked this question you was not as established as Nigel or the other members commenting here).

So he may have to operate slightly different to you and would need to present some level of visual to get the customer.

But the basic advice would be you have to work this out through trial and error and develop a system over time.

I usually do the initial design and quote and then the customer suggests changes at which point i would advise taking a deposit.

So what i'm saying is, if you're not that established, you may need to show artwork first as people will not be willing to pay up front.

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Post Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:23 am

Phill wrote:
Nigel Hindley wrote:We discuss project with customer, give them a price as soon as is possible discuss materials turnaround and show them a portfolio. They ask us to go ahead with a layout and we say we dont any do any work until we receive a deposit. We have never had anyone refuse we normally get comments like 'very wise', 'no problem' or 'ill pay the whle lot now if you want' The other advantage of taking a deposit means the balance is less and gets paid quicker because of this. It works for us so this is my advice - deposit first then design.

Nigel


This is how I work with any new customers. Existing customers with a track record are treated differently, but anyone new gets asked for a deposit. This roots out the timewasters and price shoppers.

Only a couple of days ago I had a new enquiry asking me for a price to do a van. I was shown a printout (complete with copyright notice) and asked for a price to reproduce this. I politely explained that the design had a copyright notice - and so I was unable to copy it. He left saying I must be busy if I could afford to turn down work and that he was only giving me an "opportunity" to quote.

Some people just don't get it :roll:

I emailed the company in question and told them of the enquiry I had received. It would have been nice to have had an aknowledgment but I never heard back from them.


so could you not have shown him something better?
people do have a right to shop around, we do it as a matter of course,
Ok you dont copy someone elses artwork, but to show a potential customer the door just because he showed you someone elses idea is not really good business practice, is it?
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Post Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:32 am

Liam Pattison wrote:I am probably making assumptions but the original poster probably doesn't have the large portfolio or solid reputation that you do Nigel (no disrespect to original poster, i was just assuming that as you asked this question you was not as established as Nigel or the other members commenting here).

So he may have to operate slightly different to you and would need to present some level of visual to get the customer.

But the basic advice would be you have to work this out through trial and error and develop a system over time.

I usually do the initial design and quote and then the customer suggests changes at which point i would advise taking a deposit.


So what i'm saying is, if you're not that established, you may need to show artwork first as people will not be willing to pay up front.

Liam


Your spot on with this liam I did mean to make a comment on this. It would make it harder to sell your self and possibly have to do more ie maybe do a design so folk can see. However if you are inexperienced this may have its down side too, maybe not brilliant at designing or not know materials and what works well. Id still say take a deposit.

I do think the type of your clientele the area you operate in ie high street or industrial estate makes a big difference too.

It is horses for courses but seeing what others do will help with the original question.

Nigel
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Post Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:35 am

Peter Normington wrote:
Phill wrote:
Nigel Hindley wrote:We discuss project with customer, give them a price as soon as is possible discuss materials turnaround and show them a portfolio. They ask us to go ahead with a layout and we say we dont any do any work until we receive a deposit. We have never had anyone refuse we normally get comments like 'very wise', 'no problem' or 'ill pay the whle lot now if you want' The other advantage of taking a deposit means the balance is less and gets paid quicker because of this. It works for us so this is my advice - deposit first then design.

Nigel


This is how I work with any new customers. Existing customers with a track record are treated differently, but anyone new gets asked for a deposit. This roots out the timewasters and price shoppers.

Only a couple of days ago I had a new enquiry asking me for a price to do a van. I was shown a printout (complete with copyright notice) and asked for a price to reproduce this. I politely explained that the design had a copyright notice - and so I was unable to copy it. He left saying I must be busy if I could afford to turn down work and that he was only giving me an "opportunity" to quote.

Some people just don't get it :roll:

I emailed the company in question and told them of the enquiry I had received. It would have been nice to have had an aknowledgment but I never heard back from them.


so could you not have shown him something better?
people do have a right to shop around, we do it as a matter of course,
Ok you dont copy someone elses artwork, but to show a potential customer the door just because he showed you someone elses idea is not really good business practice, is it?
Peter


Your right with this Peter but I'm like Phil - this type of customer really really p1sses me off and feel i have to show them the door, trying to play sign makers off against each other aint on - but if the other sign maker here had taken a deposit he wouldn't be hawking their design around other signmakers.
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Post Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:40 am

As the other signmaker didn't reply to you Phil, i think next time you should show the customer something better a Peter suggested.

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Post Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:45 am

I dont agree
If I am buying vinyl from one supplier I dont have a problem telling another what i am paying. if you put into practice what you are saying then there would be no competition,
I cant see why as a sign maker you or I are any different from any other business, the customer WILL shop around, the customer WILL compare quotes. and at the end of the day WILL go for what he/she feels best value for their needs.
to say a potential customer p!sses you off is again not really good business practice (even though I agree in some cases)


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Post Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:48 am

Yes but they won't be able to shop around my sketch, because they will never get one without a deposit.
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Post Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:49 am

Hi Peter,

The best value isn't always the cheapest, but I know what you are saying business is business and folk do shop about as Phil and I said though taking a deposit reduces the chance of this. If someone came into my shop with someone elses design I say the same as Phil, whilst we could do a layout the deposit we take dosnt really cover our time its to stop this type of thing. Id still be miffed if someone took our design round asking others to copy it. This guy was obviously just looking for the cheapest price so why try and attract that type of customer?
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Post Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:53 am

Jill my lovely

My customers dont get a print out without a deposit, so they cant tout it around, more fool the signmakers that do give a print out, even if it has a copyright notice.

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Post Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:59 am

But what if the first signmaker took it upon themselves to submit a design when all the customer asked for was a price? I have once or twice submitted a design with a quote in the hope they will like what I have done and stop shopping around? (especially when it is a rush job as they then feel the artwork is already done so just go for it)

I do think however if you do not have or only have a small portfolio you are going to need to give some designs away, it's part of building your business/portfolio as how will a customer know he will get a good design from you if you haven't done any?

I sometimes tell customers I can design a logo for them at a set fee and will change it as many times as they need until they are happy with it, this gives them some confidence that they will eventually get something they like so is easier to sell it to them this way, I'm not saying it;s the right way but some people are nervous about what they might get after paying for something they have never seen.

I don't think there is a right or wrong way and I also don't think you will ever know what is a good way or the best way for each individual customer, in sales it comes down to reading people, the better you can read a person the better you will know how to traet them when it comes to deposits and even prices.

For example if a tradesman came to see you with an old beat up van, shabby clothes and looks like he sleeps in his van you are not going to charge full price for the graphics (if you want the job) because you know he won't pay for it, what do you do? you design a cheap option in a few minutes and tell him he can have that for x amount, quick and cheap and a few £££'s in the bank. Another tradesman pulls in with a brand new LWB Hi roof Sprinter, wearing smart clothes etc you are going to sell up big time and really suck up offering top design and service for top price, more than likely he's willing to put down a deposit for you t send him some designs you have actually had time to sit down and think about.

I remember a few times on this forum people suggesting to make up designs and send them to potential customers to try get there business, this is designing for free and not even when it's an enquiry or potential customer (although all businesses are potential customers but you know what I mean) All you might be doing is giving that company an idea to give their business a face lift with their current sign company. Customers can be very loyal and I think rarely leave a good supplier because of design.

I have to admit I often send design without deposit, I wait until the customer approves my quote because to me that is basically an official order and they will be required to pay for the order they have placed. If I am charging artwork it will be indicated on the quote, in my T's & C's I also state any free artwork that may have been offered will be charged for if the job does not go ahead.

I'm babbling now but thought I would share.

cheers

Warren
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Post Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:02 am

I am with Peter on this....lets be fair for the professional how long does it take to design a layout for a van or signboard. We deal with all sorts of customers but mostly its local tradesmen or local shops or restaurants. If someone comes in enquiring about a van and if we're not too busy then we make up a rough proof on a photo of a van as an initial idea while he's there. ( most of the time the customer goes with this ) This can take ten minutes sometime...wow.
But if we're busy we say come back and we will show you some options.
It makes me laugh sometimes when a customer comes in with a design from a professional design house that they have paid several hundred pounds for when my kids could have come up with something better in ten minutes.
I suppose its down to experience. But once agreed they then have to pay a deposit if they want to take anything away. Most of the time the customer goes for the first design but if they want to mess around with different designs then they have to pay. We tell them time is money and they understand....if they don't then attitude changes.
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Post Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:05 am

Sometimes the shabbiest looking clients are those who pay cash.
I charge everyone the same (I do give volunteer fire companies and my own church a discount)
I will design a logo all day long as long as I am paid for it, and I charge in advance for a logo.
I don't care whether I make the sign or not as long as they have paid me for my artwork.
The reason I do not do sketches without pay is sometimes people just waste your time with this and go to the cheapest shop anyway.
Also, they will take your sketch (it has no value to them because it was free) and shop it all over town to be copied by an unscrupulous shop.
I get 50% down 50% upon completion, unless it is logo design and that it 100% up front.
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Post Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:10 am

Nigel Hindley wrote:Hi Peter,

The best value isn't always the cheapest, but I know what you are saying business is business and folk do shop about as Phil and I said though taking a deposit reduces the chance of this. If someone came into my shop with someone elses design I say the same as Phil, whilst we could do a layout the deposit we take dosnt really cover our time its to stop this type of thing. Id still be miffed if someone took our design round asking others to copy it. This guy was obviously just looking for the cheapest price so why try and attract that type of customer?


Agreed on all points, except attracting "this type of customer"
once you have taken a deposit you have in effect sealed the deal,
so the customer would then not be looking elswhere,
but the customer would not give a deposit until you have satisfied him/her that you can come up with the goods
All potential customers should be treated as such, can you imagine Sainsbury's turning away someone with an M & S carrier bag?
Or am I talking Dimbleby's


peter
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Post Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:17 am

That company should not have given him the design to go hawking around. If they did without getting a deposit then more fool them.
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Post Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:27 am

Peter Normington wrote:
Nigel Hindley wrote:Hi Peter,

The best value isn't always the cheapest, but I know what you are saying business is business and folk do shop about as Phil and I said though taking a deposit reduces the chance of this. If someone came into my shop with someone elses design I say the same as Phil, whilst we could do a layout the deposit we take dosnt really cover our time its to stop this type of thing. Id still be miffed if someone took our design round asking others to copy it. This guy was obviously just looking for the cheapest price so why try and attract that type of customer?


Agreed on all points, except attracting "this type of customer"
once you have taken a deposit you have in effect sealed the deal,
so the customer would then not be looking elswhere,
but the customer would not give a deposit until you have satisfied him/her that you can come up with the goods
All potential customers should be treated as such, can you imagine Sainsbury's turning away someone with an M & S carrier bag?
Or am I talking Dimbleby's


peter


Not Dimblebys at all Peter a valid view - What I meant about 'this type of customer' is one with no integrity looking for the cheapest deal regardless of how he gets it. Particularly one that has no compunction or even doesnt understand that he has none. I may be a fool but I wouldn't want his money or want to do business with someone like this and to be able to tell them that in the hope that the penny may drop makes me feel better. I would want him to go back to the guy that designed it and get him to do it. That is what would make me fell good because its the right thing to do.
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Post Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:31 am

Jillbeans wrote:Sometimes the shabbiest looking clients are those who pay cash.
I charge everyone the same (I do give volunteer fire companies and my own church a discount)
I will design a logo all day long as long as I am paid for it, and I charge in advance for a logo.
I don't care whether I make the sign or not as long as they have paid me for my artwork.
The reason I do not do sketches without pay is sometimes people just waste your time with this and go to the cheapest shop anyway.
Also, they will take your sketch (it has no value to them because it was free) and shop it all over town to be copied by an unscrupulous shop.
I get 50% down 50% upon completion, unless it is logo design and that it 100% up front.


Agree with everything you say Jill 100%.

Martin, we rarely design with a customer, - if they see it takes you 10 mins to layout a van then it will be harder getting good money. We always say comeback and look. The customer has the upper hand if you drop everything and start designing their work they think you don't have any work on and i feel more likely to think they are being overcharged and not getting value for money. - my opinion but that's what Id think
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Post Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:41 am

I've not read all the posts here but this is my look on it.

A short while ago someone posted a video on here about an hourly rate.
Now if you do the artwork no matter how long it takes after the client has agreed a price then turns around and says he's found it cheaper down the road then you lose out on your time if no deposit's been taken. So in affect you are bank rolling the client with your time. That to me is not acceptable.
If a client is serious and likes your price then the deal is done only after he pays at least 50% up front then you know you are not the loser in the deal.
I see it as protecting your business.
As for restaurants not taking a deposit. Bull. Most restaurants around here require you pay at the till before you eat.
The Co-op funeral service will not carry out a funeral until you've paid them a £500 fee towards disbursements.
I tell all clients now 50% up front. I also offer a discount if they pay 100% up front. No job is carried out until they've parted with a cash deposit then I know I'm safe.
Only a small minority refuse. I can live with that.
Why should I trust those that come through my door. My theory: Don't trust anyone where money is concerned.
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Post Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:46 am

I agree with Nigel 100%.
Karl too.
:wink: :lol1:
Doesn't matter if it takes 10 minutes or ten hours, it is your talent the customer is paying for, and it took you longer than 10 minutes to get where you are that you can do it in 10 minutes.
And McDonald's does make you pay up front, therefore I can too.
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Post Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:59 am

Warren I've just read your last post. The bit about the guy who sleeps in his van probably wont pay, but the well dressed guy in the sprinter will.
I know it's only theory talk but some of the wealthiest men I've dealt with have looked like tramps. It's the smart bstrds you have to be careful of. :wink:
Just look at the guy that runs this site....scruffy g!t but worth a fortune! :lol1: :lol1: :lol1: :lol1: :lol1:







That's it.......defo banned now! (>) (>) (>) (>) (>) (>) (>) (>) (>) (>) (>) (>) (>) (>) (>) (>) (>)
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Post Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:52 am

Karl Williams wrote:Warren I've just read your last post. The bit about the guy who sleeps in his van probably wont pay, but the well dressed guy in the sprinter will.
I know it's only theory talk but some of the wealthiest men I've dealt with have looked like tramps. It's the smart bstrds you have to be careful of. :wink:
Just look at the guy that runs this site....scruffy g!t but worth a fortune! :lol1: :lol1: :lol1: :lol1: :lol1:







That's it.......defo banned now! (>) (>) (>) (>) (>) (>) (>) (>) (>) (>) (>) (>) (>) (>) (>) (>) (>)

That's sooo true, An old guy late 60s round my way sells eggs door to door, every other weekend looks a bit of a down and out.
Really nice guy was chatting to him the other week, and he was telling me how he's feed up paying too much for his electric............ £4000 yes £4000 for the mouth, turns out this old boy is a multi millionaire, owns loads of property and a massive farm..
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Post Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:40 pm

Karl Williams wrote:I know it's only theory talk but some of the wealthiest men I've dealt with have looked like tramps. It's the smart bstrds you have to be careful of. :wink:

Not theory at all Karl.

My old Dad always taught me that there are more villains and thieves in collars and ties than there are in striped jumpers.

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