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Bubble free vinyl Performance ?

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James Beavon

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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:30 am

Bubble free vinyl Performance ?

Hi

I currently use the Suptac range from hexis for most applications, however i usually wet apply large graphics which can be a chore when having to push it into recesses on vehicles.

Im currently training myself to apply dry. :oops: and was thinking of paying the little extra and going for the Hexpress range of vinyl with the pyramidal adhesive structure.

How does this vinyl perform particaully when pushing it into recesses on commercial vehicles, does the glue hold ?

Also a van im doing next week has been resprayed. Will taking the vinyl off be a problem, (take the paint work off too)?

Cheers folks.
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Robert Lambie

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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:51 am

regardless to the brand, calender or cast range, you should not use bubble free/easy-apply/air-escape type vinyls on recessed areas. some may argue its fine, but i think you will find more and more suppliers of these type of products advising same when questioned about it.
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Adam McGuire

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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:24 pm

With regards to the newly resprayed van, it really does depend on the quality of workmanship at the bodyshop and how long it's been since the respray. A good bodyshop will advise that you shouldn't apply graphics for a month after a respray to allow the paint to fully harden. Applying graphics over paint which is too new can dull the covered area. The glue can affect the lacquer.

If on the otherhand the respray is less good, then it may not have been keyed properly and the paint may not stick properly to the primer so may come off when the graphics are removed.

I've put graphics on an Orange Focus ST that'd been into Ford to have some paint defects repaired. Their bodyshop wasn't particularly good, and when the customer removed his temporary graphics, they took all the paint of the lower half of the drivers door. He went back to Ford under warranty as I'd already warned him of the chances of the paint coming off.


Hope this helps!!?
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James Beavon

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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:55 pm

Thanks Adam very helpful.

Cheers Rob.

I contacted Hexis about this and was told the hexpress will be fine as long as its super heated when pushed into the recess, which is standard practice anyway IMO.

Im gonna give it a try and if it popps out i can always replace it, although i see dozens of vans with popped graphics (even the sky vans), still, you want your work to stay perfect dont ya.
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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:15 pm

I just had a play with the di noc sample I got from William Smith, that is bubble free, And I doubt it would ever pop out of a recess if applied properly, I know its not a "Wrap"vinyl as we know it. but I am not sure why bubble free should be any different than normal adhesives?
Peter
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Robert Lambie

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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:31 pm

I am not sure why bubble free should be any different than normal adhesives?


not sure i follow what you mean peter?


james, ask the same thing when it pops.... YOU will be the one to blame regardless. even if you apply it correct. :D
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Alex Wilson

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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:46 pm

Hi All

I have to agree with Rob on this one. I have learned to my cost (£2000 to be exact) that bubble free has only 70% adhesion at best even when fitted correctly. I had a major wrap fail due to the bubble free wrapping material not staying into the simplest of recesses. We had one of the top guys from a well known company visit our vehicle on site and blamed everything from the paint job to our ability to fit correctly. I have two pictures which even he could not explain how his material failed on the top of a Vito van when I got a piece of Oracle 751 to stay in place.

I have done several part wraps since without using the bubble free and I will never use it again even if it was being given away!!!

Best wishes

Alex
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Phill Fenton

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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:46 pm

My understanding is that the adhesive coverage is not 100% as it would be on a standard vinyl. Because of the channel pattern in the adhesive layer (designed to let the air escape) there are areas where there is no glue. If the vinyl is subsequently stretched these "gaps" in the glue become enlarged leading to a weaker bond
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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:48 pm

Rob
Can you explain why bubble free is not suitable for recesses?
as stated above, hexis say it is fine.
and if you watch the di noc videos, it is super conformable, and probably
well ahead of most, ok its not a printable material. but the technology does work, it will even do a sharp right angle corner


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHAwdZfw ... re=channel

Peter
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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:51 pm

Phill wrote:My understanding is that the adhesive coverage is not 100% as it would be on a standard vinyl. Because of the channel pattern in the adhesive layer (designed to let the air escape) there are areas where there is no glue. If the vinyl is subsequently stretched these "gaps" in the glue become enlarged leading to a weaker bond


Phill the adhesive is 100% coverage
I am not saying it is suitable for recesses just trying to find out why some say it is fine, and others dont

Peter
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Alex Wilson

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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:52 pm

Hi Phill

This is correct 70% glue coverage without any stretching I reckon you would be down to less than 40% in certain areas

Stay clear of bubble free on vehicle wraps it will end up costing you.

Kind regards

Alex
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Phill Fenton

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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:55 pm

Peter Normington wrote:Phill the adhesive is 100% coverage


How does the air escape then :-?
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Alex Wilson

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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:58 pm

Hi Peter

I works like a pyramid. The point of the glue sticks but the rest of the area fails to. I fully wrapped a vehicle at the beginning of the year. It popped out within 2 weeks. The customer asked me to remove all the vinyl and I stripped the whole vehicle in less that 40 minutes. I pulled a complete side of the vehicle off in one tug You could still see the areas of glue that had not touched the surface. That's how it has less than 100% adhesion

Best wishes

Alex
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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:00 pm

Alex
I have to disagree
the glue is 100% coverage, it just has channels in it that do not go through to the vinyl
Again not saying it is an ideal material, and I am not promoting bubble free.
just trying to debate why it is said to be unsuitable as opposed to normal adhesive?

Peter
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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:04 pm

Phill wrote:
Peter Normington wrote:Phill the adhesive is 100% coverage


How does the air escape then :-?

Because the chanels are in the adhesive.
that does not mean a Chanel that is free at the bottom from glue.

th

Peter
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Phill Fenton

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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:04 pm

Surely Peter, these "channels" are the "gaps" where there is no glue in contact with the surface of the substrate - hence less contact = weaker bond and when stretched weaker still
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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:05 pm

Alex Wilson wrote:Hi Peter

I works like a pyramid. The point of the glue sticks but the rest of the area fails to. I fully wrapped a vehicle at the beginning of the year. It popped out within 2 weeks. The customer asked me to remove all the vinyl and I stripped the whole vehicle in less that 40 minutes. I pulled a complete side of the vehicle off in one tug You could still see the areas of glue that had not touched the surface. That's how it has less than 100% adhesion

Best wishes

Alex


Alex

What make was it?
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Karl Williams

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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:06 pm

I had this conversation a week ago with ADS. I was told not to use it for a wrap when going into recesses. It will stay down but you have to spend an immense amount of time to get it to do so. Even then it's not guaranteed to stay put. As already said the holes open up giving less tack. My question was why is it deemed to be a wrap material? They've had many call them up saying they've had problems so now ADS strongly advise not to use it for this purpose. Use the right matts for the job. If you can't work with the correct materials then should you even be attempting to enter the wrap side of things? I found wrapping really difficult to start but now find it easier than a few months ago using the right materials for the job.
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Phill Fenton

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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:06 pm

Alex's explanation makes perfect sense to me :D
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Alex Wilson

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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:08 pm

Hi Peter

The glue is 100% coverage in little tiny pyramid shapes which does not completely adhere to the vehicle. I have pulled sections off mate and you can see where the glue has not touched the vehicle. As you say everyone to their own but from bitter experience I would not touch it with a bargepole. If you could have heard some of the excuses I heard from the rep on why it could never have been the material and then all the back tracking he had to do when I showed him the pictures and the sample I removed from the vehicle you would give it a miss too.
I am not saying bubble free does not have uses but not on recessed areas.

Kind regards

Alex
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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:10 pm

Phill wrote:Surely Peter, these "channels" are the "gaps" where there is no glue in contact with the surface of the substrate - hence less contact = weaker bond and when stretched weaker still


Phill
There are no "Gaps" as you say, the adhesive is on the vinyl, and the air chanels are created by the pattern on the backing paper, so the adhesive has an indent but this does not penetrate through the adhesive.
I can do a drawing if you still cant understand what i am saying

Peter
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Alex Wilson

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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:12 pm

Hi Peter

I do not want to name the brand as I feel they all have the same flaw and I have used their non bubble free wrapping material and found it to be flawless in its application and its ability to stay put when heated in.

Kind regards

Alex
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Karl Williams

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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:14 pm

The vinyl is perforated Peter. The air escapes through the surface. Well mactac's does anyway.
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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:20 pm

Alex Wilson wrote:Hi Peter

The glue is 100% coverage in little tiny pyramid shapes which does not completely adhere to the vehicle. I have pulled sections off mate and you can see where the glue has not touched the vehicle. As you say everyone to their own but from bitter experience I would not touch it with a bargepole. If you could have heard some of the excuses I heard from the rep on why it could never have been the material and then all the back tracking he had to do when I showed him the pictures and the sample I removed from the vehicle you would give it a miss too.
I am not saying bubble free does not have uses but not on recessed areas.

Kind regards

Alex

Alex
You have have the experience and a I accept your comments,
but has the technology moved on? (as with hexis) or was it that some bubble free never really did it right in the first place?
I believe 3m now do one that is guaranteed?
I am in no way saying what is best, just looking for opinions, and other peoples experience.
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James Beavon

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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:20 pm

Hmmm.

Think ill give it a miss then, after reading some responses, i think it best not to take the risk.

It seems manufacturers say its fine then deny responsibility when it fails. And yes Rob it will be my fault as far as the customer is concerned.
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Alex Wilson

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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:21 pm

Hi All

Peter is right in saying the glue coverage is 100% but because of the indented surface you never get 100% adhesion. The reps have since quoted me 70% adhesion on flat surfaces at the very best so have a guess how much adhesion you get in recessed areas.

STAY AWAY FROM IT ON WRAPS!!!!

It cost me a small fortune in wasted material and time fitting and removing. I also lost out on 14 other vehicles because of the failure.

I would only use non bubble free on any vehicle now

You have been warned...lol

Alex
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Alex Wilson

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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:27 pm

Hi Peter

You may be right with materials moving on but this was done within the last 3 months and I used a very well known brand with the matching laminate. I have used their non bubble free version of the same material and have done several part wraps and have had no problems since. As they say once bitten... The warranties are not worth the paper they are written on!

Alex
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John Childs

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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:37 pm

We tried a bubble free, from a very popular manufacturer, once. Not for our own benefit, but rather to aid customer fitting.

It was applied to flat panels, so lifting wasn't a problem, but the amount of shrinkage, after only a very short time, needed to be seen to be believed. It took me back to how monomeric vinyl used to be twenty years ago, with quite an obvious dirt line around the outside of the print.

Won't be using it again, for that reason alone. :(
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Phill Fenton

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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:44 pm

When wrapping I have used a combination of easy apply and conventional vinyls. The easy apply vinyl is great for large flat surfaces and goes on easily and bubble free. On panels where there are recesses I have used a cast vinyl. The rapid air/easy apply vinyls do have a textured (dimpled) appearance in comparison to normal vinyl but this is barely noticeable when there is a print.

I find using a combination of vinyls serves me well as I do still struggle to apply large areas of vinyl dry without any bubbles. ..But then that's just me.

John comment about "shrinkage has now got me worried though :-?
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Robert Lambie

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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:50 pm

Peter the 3M stuff is different mate. easy way to explain it is...

new improved 3M wrap "vinyl"
normal 100% coverage skin of adhesive.
Skin of tiny adhesive balls.

The skin of adhesive balls levitate the aggressive adhesive until pressure from the squeegee compresses the balls bringing the skin of aggressive adhesive into contact with the surface.

You must follow their application procedure by the book. by that i mean prepping using 3M cleaners etc even the recesses must be cured only after using their pressure wheels within all recesses to make sure 100% adhesion etc...

I have those wheels in my fitting box, had them about 2 years now. not the cheapest but certainly do the job much better than the pressure of a finger.
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Alex Wilson

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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:53 pm

Hi Peter

They all guarantee their material until there is a problem and then you will hear did you clean the vehicle and with what cleaner, heat it in properly was the van recently painted did you install the vinyl at the correct temperature did the prints out-gas properly is your laminator set properly have you taken a course in wrapping...do I need to go on.

I am not saying I do everything perfectly because I do not but there come a point when you realise the guarantee is not worth jack..lol

I have fitted a reasonable amount of wraps fairly well and I know when I am being taken for a mug.

Best wishes

Alex
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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:59 pm

Robert Lambie wrote:Peter the 3M stuff is different mate. easy way to explain it is...

new improved 3M wrap "vinyl"
normal 100% coverage skin of adhesive.
Skin of tiny adhesive balls.

The skin of adhesive balls levitate the aggressive adhesive until pressure from the squeegee compresses the balls bringing the skin of aggressive adhesive into contact with the surface.

You must follow their application procedure by the book. by that i mean prepping using 3M cleaners etc even the recesses must be cured only after using their pressure wheels within all recesses to make sure 100% adhesion etc...

I have those wheels in my fitting box, had them about 2 years now. not the cheapest but certainly do the job much better than the pressure of a finger.


So its still an easy apply bubble free system?


I thought this was done years ago. but then ran into problems?

Peter
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John Childs

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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:01 pm

Phill wrote:John comment about "shrinkage has now got me worried though :-?

A good couple of mm all around the print. I took photos, to show to the supplier's rep.

I'll check in the morning and, if I didn't delete them, I'll post them up.
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Alex Wilson

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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:05 pm

Hi All

So to gain some idea of how good or bad bubble free wraps are who has had success with it?

I am sure by my posts you can put me in the NO SUCCESS section..lol

Cheers

Alex
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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:11 pm

Alex Wilson wrote:Hi All

So to gain some idea of how good or bad bubble free wraps are who has had success with it?

I am sure by my posts you can put me in the NO SUCCESS section..lol

Cheers

Alex


Alex

perhaps worth starting a new topic with a poll?


Peter
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Benno

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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:24 pm

To give my input, I have used Avery supreme wrapping vinyl (was 1 month available) in combination with Avery 1005 easy apply RS on my own car, a new beetle. Which I wrapped completely.
And it still stays on very nicely, 5 months later.
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Robert Lambie

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Post Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:51 pm

all wraps are relevant to this discussion Benno, but a beetle is more a convex surface, when the issues arise with concave/recessed areas.
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Benno

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Post Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:00 am

That's true Rob, most of it is, but some parts have relative mild recesses.

What I forgot to mention was that I've used it on a VW Transporter and a Renault Traffic too, and both are fine :D
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Alex Wilson

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Post Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:19 am

Hi Benno

Can I ask the bubble free material you used?

Kind regards

Alex
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John Childs

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Post Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:43 am

John Childs wrote:I'll check in the morning and, if I didn't delete them, I'll post them up.

Sorry Phill, I must have deleted the photos after they'd served their purpose.

I'll need to be discreet, because I don't want to draw his attention to them, but I'll try to get another picture when next I see one of his vans.
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Benno

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Post Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:10 am

Alex, see my previous post:
Avery supreme wrapping for solid colors and Avery 1005 Easy Apply RS with matching laminate.

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