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One of signmakings greatest mysteries?

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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:41 am

One of signmakings greatest mysteries?

This is something that has puzzled me for years, and I would genuinely like to know the answer/reason.

Why is it that when you apply vinyl to glass it leaves behind a permanent "memory" of the shape of the lettering which remains years later even after the vinyl has been removed for ages?

i.e When you have removed the vinyl, and all of the glue you can still see the old lettering even years later when the glass is wiped with a damp cloth or condensation settles on the glass. The effect goes away completely when the glass is dry. But as soon as it gets damp again the lettering shapes re-appear.

I've even seen this on windows when I have removed recent lettering, and upon cleaning, the previous generation (i.e even older than the vinyl I have just removed) shows up when the window is dampened.

Does anyone know the answer to this?
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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:10 am

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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:28 am

im not saying this is the answer to it all but is credible.
most glass has some form of tint or filter in them.
take a car windscreen...
we put fluorescent and bright coloured vinyls onto car windscreens and the like. these colours reflect the light, where the exposed glass areas surrounding the vinyl absorb the UV light. the longer the vinyl is on the glass the more uv attack is on the exposed areas. as a result it very slightly lightens the tint of the glass.
we then remove the vinyl leaving the protected areas that were under the vinyl now exposed. however, the surrounding areas are slightly lighter than those that were beneath the vinyl creating a ghosting effect in the glass.

hope that makes sense? :-? :lol1:
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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:35 am

So, is it similar to what happens to the painted panels on the vans like, let's say, when you see an ex British Gas van going round with the ghostly lettering/logos still visible after having been removed?
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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:40 am

It's the Ghost of Stickers Past.
:wink:
Love....Jill
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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:20 pm

Gareth Lewis wrote:So, is it similar to what happens to the painted panels on the vans like, let's say, when you see an ex British Gas van going round with the ghostly lettering/logos still visible after having been removed?


yes, but that's more abrasion on the exposed areas. so the paintwork below the vinyl is protected and appears newer than the exposed areas once removed.
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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:23 pm

Gareth Lewis wrote:So, is it similar to what happens to the painted panels

I say yes.

Ghosting on paintwork is caused by the vinyl protecting the paint from everyday wear and tear.

Glass isn't totally inert and suffers the same sort of surface erosion so, although it doesn't show up as much as it does on paint, the effect is still there.
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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:53 pm

So how come you don't see it when the glass is dry - it only shows up when the glass is wet.

It's as if the water knows that there was vinyl there once :o
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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:56 pm

My guess is the vinyl stops the vinyl from abrasion. You see it when its wet because the glass is still more perfectly flat so the water beads on these areas and where its been affected by abrasion the water doesn't bead so much. That's why you only notice when its wet.

It's like new glass the whole panel will bead.
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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:07 pm

No - I'm not buying the abrasion theory. It happens even when vinyl has been on for a fairly short period of time. Also vinyl tends to be applied inside windows, in clean environments with still air - so what causes the abrasion?

I reckon it's to do with the waters surface tension. On areas of glass that have had vinyl fitted, the waters surface tension is either reduced or increased - whatever - but the result is that the water forms different sized droplets when it is over an area of glass that previously had vinyl fitted. So what causes this difference in the waters surface tension?
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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:12 pm

i've recently re-done an insurance brokers premises that i originally did about 3 years ago, upon removing yellow flood coat from inside the glass i noticed the glue residue stuck worse where the original sign writing (vinyl) was that i removed first time around, there was a perfect memory in glue on the glass,

externally i had some black strips with relief text, the relief text was clearly visible in the glass from inside, despite going at it externally with razor scraper and soapy water, followed by solvent thinners, still there!

strange!
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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:13 pm

http://74.125.153.132/search?q=cache:yI ... =firefox-a

That explains the water beads. Still Googling.
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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:32 pm

That was quite an interesting read Jason, thanks! :lol1:
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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:44 pm

What about -
Any water vapour left under the vinyl causes the alkali in the surface of the glass to be removed. This is accentuated by heat.
Once this happens the glass starts to become porous, and the glue residues get stuck in the glass.
A bit like shaving the surface off an Aero bar - it's still flat but porous at the surface.
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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:17 pm

Glass, even though solid, is in a constant fluid state due to the way it is made (if it was solid you wouldn't see through it). If you look at old windows they are thicker at the bottom then the top due to gravity(not by inches but microns). Through out the evolution of the glass making process it has become more stable (lamination etc).

There for when you apply a sticker, it retains the surface tension of the glass in that area, upsetting the natural gravitation process, under a microscope you would see ridges, which water will highlight.


(read it on a crisp packet) :D

Thanks Dave

p.s (Has anyone got the Turbo decal that goes on a Landcruiser as my other post) :D
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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:29 pm

Dave Armstrong wrote:(read it on a crisp packet) :D


*rofl*
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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:35 pm

John Childs wrote:
Dave Armstrong wrote:(read it on a crisp packet) :D


*rofl*


Either that or eating crisps, was sometime ago :D
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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:18 pm

Could it not just be a residue from the adhesive, although glass feels smooth and flat we all know that under a microscope it isn't so could it be that this residue absorbs a degree of moisture when it rains ?????
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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:02 pm

Sorry Martin.

That's way too boring.

I'm waiting for a conspiracy theory from Rob. :D
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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:21 pm

Peter Dee wrote:
A bit like shaving the surface off an Aero bar - it's still flat but porous at the surface.


Can we have ice cream with that? :D
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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:54 pm

Maybe it's because the surface under the vinyl is protected from abrasive cleaners.
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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:54 pm

Mmmm...Aero Bar (Homer Simpson voice)
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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:19 pm

I go with Dave Armstrong's explanation.

My dad owns a "patent medicine chest" with hundreds of little glass bottles etc. in it, containing all sort of weird and wonderful potions. ( Many seem opium and or alcohol based....)

These things are about 120 years old. The bottles all thickened towards the base, and if you lift the paper labels (obviously loose on some) you can see and feel a ridge where the label was stuck down. The bottles that were laid flat are flat on the sides, and you even see marks where the bottles were laid on bandages etc. ( The chest was un-disturbed for probably 80 or 100 years)

Vinyl on a window, essentially applied to a very thick liquid, is sure to have an effect on the liquid (glass), especially given that the adhesive tightly bonds glass and vinyl together, and the vinyl then very slightly shrinks as well. Ever applied vinyl to a sign that received a few coats of enamel without giving the enamel sufficient time to dry between the coats? It also "pulls" towards the letters. Dont ask me how I know....

It is also conceivable that the glass tries to flow "over" the edge of the vinyl, thus creating a slight ridge , i.e the vinyl alters the uniform "flow" of the glass.

Now, where's me opium....
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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:40 pm

Sorry John I can't help it, I am a boring person :oops:

I'm currently looking for a course on " How not to be a boring old Fa*t" but I'm having trouble finding one. Maybe there is a book out there that will help.

If I can find something then I will try answering the question again once I am more qualified :lol1:
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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:44 pm

Martin, I will keep you company because I am a very boring person.
Maybe we can hit up Gert for his dad's patent samples and have a big party!
:D
Either that or play charades then knit.
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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:46 pm

Jillbeans wrote:Martin, I will keep you company because I am a very boring person.
Maybe we can hit up Gert for his dad's patent samples and have a big party!
:D
Either that or play charades then knit.


Can we have Aero and Ice Cream too? :lol1: (hot)
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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:59 pm

I'am with dave on this only because I recently asked an expert on glass "why does it sometimes break were vinyl is applied" and he explained that just as dave said that the glass still always staying as a liquid and therefore anything you put on it will upset the overall movement of the ever changing shape and surface and cause it to crack. Whenever we do a window now we always explain to the customer that the glass could crack if putting vinyl on it.
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Post Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:31 am

Deffo wot Dave said was getting fired up and was just about to post when i saw Dave had already.
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Post Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:33 am

Can we have Aero and Ice Cream too?

No Harry you have to eat pickles.
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Post Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:59 am

Pickles you say? would there be cheese with that? :D :D
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Post Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:03 am

Now you see I'm beginning to detect a pattern here - most replies are helpful and show genuine effort, but sadly there are always two or three individuals that have to be disruptive and subversive.

Cleary, Clinch and Welsh - go to the back of the class Image
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Post Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:13 am

Do you think that's how verificals were invented?

Someone put an antique pair of specs on and noticed more magnifying power at the bottom where the glass had sank... :D
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Post Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:28 am

I can't decide if you're being genuinely helpful or deliberately subversive James :lol1: :lol1:
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Post Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:33 am

John Childs wrote:Sorry Martin.

That's way too boring.

I'm waiting for a conspiracy theory from Rob. :D


well thank god someones thinking outside the box...

Phill is probably in on it too... its the old trick, create as many conspiracy replies as possible to dilute credibility of "the real one".
Then, any minute now Mr Normington will appear and create an argument with Phill that's completely irrelevant to the thread. This will get nasty and the thread will end up getting locked after several members... Marcella, Harry and Debbie Astle of Grafityp all contact us making complaints about the threads impact on how the site will be viewed by newbies to the trade. In turn we will have no option but to completely remove the thread. and there you have it...

The names in this post have not been changed because there are no innocent. all mentioned above are in this upto their ears, Jack Bowers too actually, but we are still trying to establish at what point he came into contact wil debbie.


wot? (puppy-eyes)



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Post Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:59 am

My first reply was serious.
It's a ghosting effect.
Now don't make me get out my microscope and chemistry set.
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Post Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:32 pm

we have done a lot of building wraps in the past and we have found that some vinyls seem to strip the coating off the glass when removed without heat therefore leaving it clean looking but once it gets wet the water does not run off it or bead as well as it did before. I'm not sure if this is the same thing but its something we have noted this end.
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Post Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:33 pm

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Post Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:52 pm

Robert Lambie wrote:
John Childs wrote:Sorry Martin.

That's way too boring.

I'm waiting for a conspiracy theory from Rob. :D


well thank god someones thinking outside the box...

Phill is probably in on it too... its the old trick, create as many conspiracy replies as possible to dilute credibility of "the real one".
Then, any minute now Mr Normington will appear and create an argument with Phill that's completely irrelevant to the thread. This will get nasty and the thread will end up getting locked after several members... Marcella, Harry and Debbie Astle of Grafityp all contact us making complaints about the threads impact on how the site will be viewed by newbies to the trade. In turn we will have no option but to completely remove the thread. and there you have it...

The names in this post have not been changed because there are no innocent. all mentioned above are in this upto their ears, Jack Bowers too actually, but we are still trying to establish at what point he came into contact wil debbie.


wot? (puppy-eyes)



.

Wot?


I dont think so, But I do believe Phil is overweight :D

Peter
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Post Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:05 pm

Peter Normington wrote:
Robert Lambie wrote:
John Childs wrote:Sorry Martin.

That's way too boring.

I'm waiting for a conspiracy theory from Rob. :D


well thank god someones thinking outside the box...

Phill is probably in on it too... its the old trick, create as many conspiracy replies as possible to dilute credibility of "the real one".
Then, any minute now Mr Normington will appear and create an argument with Phill that's completely irrelevant to the thread. This will get nasty and the thread will end up getting locked after several members... Marcella, Harry and Debbie Astle of Grafityp all contact us making complaints about the threads impact on how the site will be viewed by newbies to the trade. In turn we will have no option but to completely remove the thread. and there you have it...

The names in this post have not been changed because there are no innocent. all mentioned above are in this upto their ears, Jack Bowers too actually, but we are still trying to establish at what point he came into contact wil debbie.


wot? (puppy-eyes)



.

Wot?


I dont think so, But I do believe Phil is overweight :D

Peter




https://www.uksignboards.com/viewtopic.p ... 964#332964 :you:



:wink:
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Post Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:52 pm

Peter Normington wrote:I dont think so, But I do believe Phil is overweight :D
Peter


I... I... I.... How Very dare you (hot) (hot)
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Post Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:51 pm

how about the morris 1000 police cars of years ago,blue cars with white doors ,on the doors were painted police emblems when the doors were sanded back to bare metal , re-primed and painted the logo would bleed back through only thing i can put this down to is the metal absorbing pigment from the paint
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Post Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:39 am

Over the last two years I've had a tattoo slowly forming in soft purple on my right forearm spelling the the words "Chrissie" [with a dagger]...I'm sure I'm my grandfathers dad re-incarnated :D :D
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Post Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:02 am

:D :D :D :D

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