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what are the differences between grafiwrap & oracal 3951

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Post Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:46 pm

what are the differences between grafiwrap & oracal 3951?

Evening all,

I'm just on the verge of ordering our first batch of wrapping vinyl and wondered if anyone could help me with a little conundrum.

I've printed the grafityp vinyl, prints beautiful and seems a sensible price.

Oracal 3951, although I've not had a sample to mess with I do trust the oracal brand and know if theres a problem Europoint will collect it and refund accordingly.

But which would you recommend? I like the idea of the 3951 rapid air version but Cameron (Steer) has suggested it might not be so hot in recesses etc and I'd rather only need to stock one film if possible.

Also Cameron mentioned a product called Command Form, a product that when applied to the vehicle would allow any regular wrapping vinyl to be repositionable and have an "air free" ability due to the product. Anyone tried it/use it, I've done some googling but cant shed any light on the stuff.

Cheers
Andy

PS. Tried the Mactac one two (bubble free) but cant get a happy result with any of the profiles they have for download. Anyone got experience of this? Its a nice film but I'm not going to spend £750 for vinyl and lam if the print quality and colour is off.
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Jason Davies

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Post Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:24 pm

Do you have a heated laminator?

Jason
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Post Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:26 pm

No just a bog standard cold laminator

Andy
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Jason Davies

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Post Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:33 pm

I've not used graphiwrap but I think I remember reading on this board that the laminate had to be heated by the laminator during application, I'm sure someone who has used it will be along shortly to confirm this either way.


Jason
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John Childs

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Post Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:52 pm

I think I am correct in saying that the reason for heating Grafiwrap is to reduce the initial tack. Nothing else. If you're not worried about that, then no problem.

I've no experience with the Oracal product, but would hesitate in using it because of our experience with 751c. On the other hand, we have used roll after roll of Grafiwrap and have nothing but praise for it. It's our weapon of choice.
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Robert Lambie

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Post Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:07 pm

I have used both Oracal and Grafiwrap, but i havent used graphiwrap enough to be able to say which is better than the other. both are very good wrap systems and would recommend either..

i have used the command form, have a couple bottles of it in our store which i got initially as a product test... there IS a very important process in applying this product prior to wrapping. so with that in mind, i dont let our staff use it other than if it is very neccessary. which is seldom. i only say that because staff can be lazy and applied in the wrong place can open you a can of worms. in short, i need the peace of mind... :lol1:
if trying to speed up your wrap applications, i would suggest folk to try it, but please keep to the strict guidlines. its only about £35 a bottle i think... (dont quote me though)
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Jon Marshall

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Post Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:14 pm

The Mactac BF isn't a cast vinyl and not good in recesses.
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Post Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:35 am

Thanks for the heads up Jon, it all sounded great on the mactac us website and the sample "looked" the part but if its not cast I'll just put that one to bed!

Rob, thanks for that mate, I'm half tempted just to take a punt and flip a coin on the vinyl choice as I dont think I'll have any major problem with either - was just trying to see if anybody had any strong concerns over either.

The conform spray, sounds like a good idea but if theres pitfalls with that too its a worry - am I right in saying that it helps to make things more forgiving but once I become proficient in wrapping it may become redundant. I've never seen any of the wrap demo guys using it at signuk.....

Andy
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Shane Drew

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Post Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:03 am

Hi Andy,

I've used Oracal but not the other in wrap material. Used the cheaper graphtyp and very impressed tho.

I can only agree with what Rob says about the command form spray. In the wrong hands it can be a nightmare.

Oracal have released the 3951 with the GRA adhesive http://www.oracal.com/products/product.asp?seriesID=230 so you will no longer need the command fluid. I know in Australia they are still offering both, but are running out the non-GRA version about $8 a metre cheaper.

If I'd have me choice between the two, I'd take the GRA over the one needing command form.

That said, I have done a vehicle without the non-GRA product without the command form spray... bit of a nightmare as the adhesive sticks like poo to a blanket, but with two people doing the fitting - one to hold the tape off the vehicle, the other to swear and curse, it has a great finish.

Hope that helps....
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Shane Drew

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Post Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:10 am

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Andrew Blackett

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Post Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:40 pm

Hi Shane,

Its a cracking video that, I first saw it just before christmas as Cameron Steer pointed me in its direction.

Thanks for all the comments on the materials, I had a little play with the grafiwrap and mactac ones today, both seem to go on really really nice. I just put some pieces over the plastic control cover on the versacamm and messed about.

I'm still very much stuck for what to do. It was suggested to me that the rapid air version of 3951 is good but pulls out of recesses, anybody heard or experienced this?

Andy
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Shane Drew

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Post Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:19 am

Andy Blackett wrote:Hi Shane,

I'm still very much stuck for what to do. It was suggested to me that the rapid air version of 3951 is good but pulls out of recesses, anybody heard or experienced this?

Andy


Andy, all the air release products from all suppliers have a similar problem on deep recesses but shallow recesses shouldn't be an issue if applied correctly.

Most recommend no air release for deep recesses, for that very reason.

Hope that helps

Shane
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james tilley

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Post Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:07 pm

Hi Andy

We have used Grafiwrap for a number of years now and have had no problems to speak of. I personally wouldn't use anything on the vehicle first apart from a good prep! If you used this 'command form' and you had a problem with the wrap your warranty maybe void? I haven't used the oracal but have to agree with Jon re the bubble free, I personally wouldn't touch the stuff! As for the heat in lamination, you can heat the glue side at a high temp, this makes it more removable.
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Shane Drew

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Post Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:16 pm

james tilley wrote:Hi Andy

If you used this 'command form' and you had a problem with the wrap your warranty maybe void? .


Just to clarify, Command Form is an Oracal approved product and will not void warranty if applied correctly.
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james tilley

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Post Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:20 pm

Hi Shane, sorry I don't know the product and was concerned if this was to be used with the Grafiwrap.
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Rod Gray

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Post Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:58 pm

Andy Blackett wrote:
I'm still very much stuck for what to do. It was suggested to me that the rapid air version of 3951 is good but pulls out of recesses, anybody heard or experienced this?

Andy


Why does it need to be the rapid air version of 3951 Andy?.

We use the normal version and i`m very happy with the result. We use it exclusively and in 2008 we wrapped close on 80 tractor units with it so you could say we`re used to using it.

90% of those wraps were using the clear version of 3951 with the 290F laminate.

We like it and trust it and (touch wood) haven`t had 1 single area on any of the cabs fail.

Big recommendation for oracal 3951 from me.
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Andrew Blackett

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Post Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:32 pm

Thanks for all your replies, I've ordered some command form today. Apparantly Europoint Manchester had 15 bottles in stock but I've just taken one to see what its about - was only £15

Think I'm going to plump for the 3951 as its repositionable straight off the roll - no need to heat the back like the grafityp (we dont have a heated laminator)

I know that people have used it without heating it but I just think it would be a better bet if I got something re-positionable whilst I'm finding my feet.

Took our first order for some wrap today, a mini needing the a-panels, bonnet and air scoop wrapping - will let you know how things go

Andy
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Andrew Blackett

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Post Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:20 pm

3951 and 290f laminate ordered today....

wish me luck :lol1:

Andy
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Shane Drew

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Post Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:43 am

slow and steady Andy, you'll be right :wink:
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Cameron Steer

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Post Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:44 pm

Hi Guys,

Just to confirm , Rapid air in deep reccesses is a no go , the air channels spread and there will be parts with no adhesive on , When using command form remember to clean the reccesses and edges with isoprop the Command form with make application much easier and is ready to go through car washes 3/4 hours after application.
One tip which is really useful , i think , for solid colour vehicle wraps you are generally limited to just a few colours maybe 20 or so , simply pick a 951 series colour and laminate with 290f to give you an easy to work with 100mic material and by using command form will give you the effect of a re-positionable adhesive. I guess you could do the same with any other cast vinyl and laminate as long as they are cast on the same line to the same spec so they perform in the same way. Result you now have hundreds of self colour wrapping film to choose from !!
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Adam Blacklock

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Post Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:14 pm

I don't trust the 3951AR (with the 290F) on anything approaching a curve. It just doesn't stop in. The normal 3951 is better, but isn't a patch on the Avery 1004 easi-apply with the 1030 laminate (35 micron).

I realise that the price difference is huge between these, but the Avery is by far the best with print and gloss quality and I find I can work a lot faster with it too. I've not tried the non-easi-apply version yet, but will be doing shortly.

Both the avery and the oracal have been tried on a few gravel rally cars by me and both seem to be pretty resistant to trees and the like.
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Cameron Steer

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Post Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:55 pm

HI Adam,

Of course i would say the print difference is down to profiling and you could use the Oraguard 293f which is a 30mic cast overlaminate , the Conformguard make application so much easier you have to try it to see the difference. Result is still a huge saving with all the benifits.

Sorry Rob if this is selling just answering the question !!
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Andrew Blackett

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Post Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:14 pm

Well my first impressions are good, it seems really repositionable and the laminate is beautiful. Just on a side note the profiles off the oracal usa site werent very good at all but the ones from orafol.de were great.

Have got the fitting booked in for friday so will let you all know how I get on.

Andy
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Cameron Steer

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Post Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:43 pm

HI Andy,

Just remember to clean the recceses and edges with Isoprop and after its been applied heat those same areas to 120dg , you will have no problems , avoid bubbles in the recesses at all costs as trapped air will expand and split the vinyl when heated to this level.

Will be good to hear how you get on.
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Oliver Röhler

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Post Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:04 am

Cameron Steer wrote:after its been applied heat those same areas to 120dg ,


120dg fahrenheit?
this means 48,9° celsius, right?

are you shure?
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Robert Lambie

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Post Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:31 am

yeah that's what i take my wraps up to... in fact i always thought oracal was a bit higher than that and took it as high as i could, but my general rule of thumb is to take any wrap up to 100 degrees using a heat gun and laser thermometer.
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Paul Humble

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Post Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:49 am

Where can I find more info and suppliers of Command Form?
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Cameron Steer

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Post Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:33 pm

Hi there,

We have a few bottles to test it out before we order some more , if the feedback is good we will be buying it from Orafol.

I saw Manfred using it and had a go myself and even i got a panel on with no bubbles !!! (wasnt a very big panel mind)

Cheers
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Andrew Blackett

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Post Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:33 pm

With regard to the film and laminate. Did the laminating of the prints this afternoon and I'm very very impressed. Has a really nice deep gloss finish and no silvering either (we only have a cold laminator) I really wish I could justify this stuff for all our work!!

Andy
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Phill Fenton

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Post Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:54 pm

Is the 3951 vinyl available at 760 wide? I seem to remember the last time I asked about this vinyl it was only available much wider
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Andrew Blackett

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Post Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:57 pm

Hiya Phill,

The orafol website states;

Standard widths in mm at lengths of 50m, 100m, 250m:
1520, 1370, 1050, 914, 760, further widths on request


Whether Europoint stock them all is another question but they've definately got 1370mm and I'd surprised if they didnt have 760mm as its a popular size.

Andy

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