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am i crazy buying an epson 9880 for signage work?

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Post Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:23 pm

am i crazy buying an epson 9880 for signage work?

i have a mimaki 760 sp11 great little machine but limited by its size. i really need an AO Machine. I plan on keeping the Mimaki for many years to come but the upgrade to a 1300mm mimaki is far to big of an investment.

before i had the mimaki I owned an epson 7800 24 inch printer far superior quality to the mimaki. I use to print onto mactac jt 1028 tyvek vinyl using k3 inks and then laminate, 3 year on I still have signs up all around South Wales with no fade or deteration what so ever.

So my plan is instead of spending £14,000 on a new 1300mm mimaki, but to keep the Mimaki for the quicky jobs but to buy the new epson 9880 44 inch printer which comes in at £3,700 which uses the same heads as the mimaki.

Epson state they have also added a lot of speed to the new machines, so why arent we using them more for signage, when they are a quarter of the cost and twice the quality?


Am I about to make a mistake purchasing this piece of kit?


cheers


simon
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Post Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:26 pm

inks and wide range off materials?

Petetr
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Post Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:44 pm

tyvek is as cheap as vinyl

canvas is canvas


and pop up material and all the fancy stuff I have never used anyway.


gone on peter, why else wouldn,t you buy one. the cheque is almost in the envelope ready to go off.
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Post Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:54 pm

still need convincing

K3 Ink - No Smell, No Fade, No Cleaning, No Self Cleaning, No Mess, No Dead banding, No Ink expiry dates.

i love mimaki, bt not the price tag


9880 the same head technology but 11 grand cheaper.
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Post Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:56 pm

simon i have a soljet and a epson. and for normal signwork the solvent machine wins in all directions, the epson has its uses but the lack of quality out door media, makes me say go solvent

chris
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Post Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:29 pm

have you ever tried tyvek, as good or if not better than vinyl works surperb on the epson
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Post Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:35 pm

I thought tyvek was a banner material, are you saying they make it as a self adhesive film like vinyl? and it can be applied to vehicles?

Peter
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Post Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:55 pm

tyvek is the original brand name of a company called P & P In Chicago it has actually been designed for the American Market for Pipe marker identifications this the need to be water, chemical and tear resistant.

I have a xerox DC42 Digital Printer which I produce 1000,s of 1 off labels on
I have pipes labelled up on several North Sea Oil Platforms for a Water Treatment Company with no complaints.


the sheeted stuffed is re badged by Xerox

on a roll it is rebadged by Mactac product code JT1028 (ask Andersons for a sample).


the Tyvek Banner stuff maybe the same brand as I had a sample throught the other day of a tear resistant banner material called tyvek that was only about 150 gsm cheap a chips but strong as hell.



simon
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:01 am

obviously not cos what i know as tyvek is a very light canvas ,

you know your customer and what they require, but imho as peter says its choice of quality out door materials.

anything non water proof indoors the epson has it.

chris
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:04 am

But will it stick or wrap a van?
You say it is as good as vinyl, just wondered how you came to that conclusion? probably the same way as you think an epson is as good as a mimaki..
it depends on what you use it for.


Peter
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:12 am

Peter Normington wrote:I thought tyvek was a banner material, are you saying they make it as a self adhesive film like vinyl? and it can be applied to vehicles?

Peter


I've got a role of Tyvek here.... its a tearless paper at best, with do adhesive at all. Is there another tyvek?

I'm about to throw this roll in the tip, because the quality it produces is not something I'm happy with.

Am I missing something?

The epson can't be everything a mimaki is though. They are good, but they aint that good. You get what you pay for I guess.
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:36 am

what would i use the epson for

Hi Peter


I have a series of safety signs A1 Laminated stuck to metal doors outside, I have a safety boards outside with peoples faces on with a royal blue border around them, I have 16 location arrows all different colours on signs in barrels all in a really dirty plant in an industrial Town Called Port Talbot, went there just before christmas, and there is no sign of any degeneration what so ever in either the laminate, Print or colour fading, all printed on an epson 7800 in early 2006.


thats what started me thinking about another purchase.
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:53 am

my quality out of my Mimaki JV3-S is on par with photographic print, a lot to do with the dot patterns out of shiraz... Cant comment on those Epsons but the JV3 certainly does use the same head as a Epson 10000

As I understand it, the printer is basically a bit of hardware that control roll feeding, heating, squirting and purging. The RIP sends the dots (or data) to the head, so quality is down to the RIP


& INK!
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:00 am

I am using shiraz on Mimaki, what ever you set it up on you will get a scab dot. if you checked both the Mimaki and the Epson out with a linear tester you would note the Epson has being the key winner in Quality.
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:46 am

Interesting what you are saying Simon, as I recently spoke to an inkjet printer repair guy who was saying that HP guarantee there uv inks for 12 years!!! Started me thinking this solvent lark was just hype. I have put signs out printed with my Encad and laminated, that was 2 years ago and no complaints yet (although I haven't been to see what they look like).

Cheers

Dave
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:42 pm

K3 inkjet versus solvent

HI DAVE


Finallly i have found someone to join my gang, I agree if you are running 12 hours a day on hundreds of different media,s go for true solvent, but Epson who are really seiko tested out the k3 ink in a simulated booth in Amsterdam


which will gave a result of printing in direct sunshine outdoors for 85 years, (it wasnt 85 years of course but enough UV to simulate it) its obvious why they dont put this in the literature has they are supplying Agfa Sherpa, Mimaki, Roland with there head technology and I am not sure but i suspect the new microweave system on the uniform gear may also be epson heads.

The only thing with hp,is I use to use an epson 5000 for contracting proofing in the print game and it was very poor quality, maybe they have changed as this was 5 years ago.


welcome to my gang


simon
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:21 pm

Having produced signage on a Canon wp8400 for nearly a year the conclusion I came to was that the aqueous printers have the edge for ultimate quality and are much easier to use. However, I think that a lot of the benifits are down to the coating on the media rather than the printer.

Any surface that has been designed to receive an inkjet print will be able to achieve a higher resolution and density of ink without saturating. Printing onto untreated glossy surfaces presents many problems and I think the latest generation of solvent printers are making the best of a very difficult job.

If I had had room for my Canon alongside my Valuejet I think I would have had the best of both worlds.

Colin
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:39 pm

another member in the inkjet gang

When I get the new epson in I am going to try out lots of different Medias and post all the product results, having both a solvent and an inkjet the only benefit of the solvent machine to me is only the speed as I dont do vehicle wraping or use any fancy materials.

for run off the mill signwriters is it really worth spending an extra 11 grand or rmore on solvent? , especially when solvent is so agreesive to the workings of the machine!


the out of waranty on my epson 7800 with epson was £575 a year compared to £2,500 a year for a solvent set up.
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:19 pm

Can you get car wrapping media for pigment ink?
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:46 pm

i dont think so, there is only a limited range of materials, poster paper, self adhesive papers, matt vinyl, pop up and canvas, i yet to find a vehicle wrap material, but you never know..
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:53 pm

re-encad

i use to operate the early encad, although the quality was only on a basic
level, the maintenace was really easy and you could swap over from outdoor ink to indoor ink in seconds, i also liked the way if you add a head problem all you had to door was prime the lines with a suction gun. in fact I have just been offered a brand new 1.6 metre sunking machine (who I guess make the machines for encad in china) for £1050 and £120 shipping. nearly went for it.
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:03 pm

Simon James wrote:i dont think so, there is only a limited range of materials, poster paper, self adhesive papers, matt vinyl, pop up and canvas, i yet to find a vehicle wrap material, but you never know..


Simon you just answered your own question, buy the epson if it meets your needs, but please dont try and convince others that it is better than a solvent printer, or even equal to for most jobs that a signmaker would do.

Peter
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:33 pm

There are actually hundreds of different medias available for these printers including polyesters, fabrics, scrim banners, backlits, canvas, untold papers and probably more importantly, vinyls. All available from normal outlets (europoint, Hexis, Tepede etc as well as internet, Korea and china)

All have a coating which means a brilliant print surface but extra thickness and when allied with a protective laminate, wrapping (or conformability) is not possible.

However, I would say there there are several jobs that they will do better than a solvent printer, and to be fair Peter, I don't think people on this site give these printers enough credit (possibly because they have never used one).

Areas where a pigmented printer will outperform a solvent printer are:

Cost to own and parts (as they tend not to melt)

Quality for critical work

Backlit film quality and density

Eco friendly - A big issue with some "PC" customers

No health issues - many smaller signmakers work in a confined space or even their home.

Ease of use - Coating makes profiles a doddle

And most importantly, accessibility. By this I mean that any decent solvent printer is a huge leap of faith and may take a long time to recoup the outlay from zero digital output. Our Canon allowed us to approach old and new customers with a digital option in-house (after some disastrous episodes subbing out) and gradually build up a client base to support a more expensive printer.

Overall I think Simon is correct in saying that for certain circumstances these printer ARE better than solvent printers for producing signage (which includes more than vehicle wraps and cheap banners).

Colin
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:09 pm

YOU MUST ADMIT THOUGH PETE,

I HAVE DEFINETELY SPICED THINGS UP A BIT.

VESPA OR LAMBRETTA

CANNON OR NIKON

MAN UTD OR CHELSEA

AND NOW

SOLVENT OR INKJET.


SIMON
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:15 pm

Simon James wrote:YOU MUST ADMIT THOUGH PETE,

I HAVE DEFINETELY SPICED THINGS UP A BIT.

VESPA OR LAMBRETTA

CANNON OR NIKON

MAN UTD OR CHELSEA

AND NOW

SOLVENT OR INKJET.


SIMON

I never did like scooters, they are for girls
buy a proper camera,
and support a real football team,

Peter

Ps no need to shout.

and my name is Peter



:wink:
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:28 pm

Hi Colin

I think you have a valid point on the safety of solvent inks, if you smell the ink it means you are breathing it in, you would have to hold the Inkjet cartridges to your nose to be able to wiff the smell, as for the solvent ink it is very overpowering after an hour or so.

I do personally worry about the carnigenic properties of these inks especially the amount of black carbon used which i know is dangerous.

I worked with a number of guys in the print industry who went down with a type of cancer that was typical to people using plastics and petro chemicals,which we used every day, this of course was unfounded, but did warrant the National Graphical union to give us all a news letter on the subject.


short term I dont think solvent is to bad, but if you can smell it and you are breathing it in, it cant be that good for you.

you can have of course purchase extractors at an extra £3,000 or so or stick to inks that dont give off fumes.



simon
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:34 pm

Simon James wrote:Hi Colin

I think you have a valid point on the safety of solvent inks, if you smell the ink it means you are breathing it in, you would have to hold the Inkjet cartridges to your nose to be able to wiff the smell, as for the solvent ink it is very overpowering after an hour or so.

I do personally worry about the carnigenic properties of these inks especially the amount of black carbon used which i know is dangerous.

I worked with a number of guys in the print industry who went down with a type of cancer that was typical to people using plastics and petro chemicals,which we used every day, this of course was unfounded, but did warrant the National Graphical union to give us all a news letter on the subject.


short term I dont think solvent is to bad, but if you can smell it and you are breathing it in, it cant be that good for you.

you can have of course purchase extractors at an extra £3,000 or so or stick to inks that dont give off fumes.






simon



I have a Roland that uses Eco inks no smell from them :D
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:39 pm

Hi Peter

I am not not trying to convince other people, but to merely guage an interest, I have personally run Epson, Mimaki, OCE, Agfa sherpa, Encad a Xerox DC42 and DC12 and a high end 1 million pound Xeikon digital Press and have been involved in digital printing since 1998

I am merely trying to convince myself and not others.
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:41 pm

Simon,
just wondered why you are pushing so hard to sell epson?
now you have moved on to environment issues..

Peter
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:46 pm

Simon James wrote:Hi Peter

I am not not trying to convince other people, but to merely guage an interest, I have personally run Epson, Mimaki, OCE, Agfa sherpa, Encad a Xerox DC42 and DC12 and a high end 1 million pound Xeikon digital Press and have been involved in digital printing since 1998

I am merely trying to convince myself and not others.


Simon no dis mate, if you have had so much experience, you should not need to convince yourself, you already know the answers, few of us have had the experience that you have had.

so our advice is meaningless

Peter
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:49 pm

Hi Peter

Colin Quoted health issues for smaller type users working in confined spaces ie. working from home, i thought he had a very valid point


Simon
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:54 pm

simon, valid or not, why are you seeking advice on an issue that you already know the answers to?

Please answer my question, "why are you asking for advice, and then giving your own arguments as why the advice is given is not valid"

Peter
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:59 pm

sorry Peter

I always liked a debate,but I can see now i am clearly starting to wind you up, probably time for me to bow out and find something else to talk about.


I Know how about Wales whipping your hides in Rugby on Saturday!


Cheers



simon
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:04 pm

Nick

I probably should have mentioned that I now have an eco solvent valuejet so know about the lower smell inks. However, I think you are kidding yourself to say they have no smell.

Our workshop and office are fairly closely connected and two of the females I work with complain quite quickly once the printer starts up (wusses!). I also understand that although they don't smell too bad, even the eco solvents are not good to inhale so wouldn't be so happy if it was in my home, around children.

Colin
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:05 pm

Simon,

If you knew me, you would know I dont get wound up, but if you prefer not to answer questions, thats fine,

I am always willing to debate,
but debate is a two way discussion.....


Peter
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:32 pm

Simon James wrote:YOU MUST ADMIT THOUGH PETE,

I HAVE DEFINETELY SPICED THINGS UP A BIT.

VESPA OR LAMBRETTA

CANNON OR NIKON

MAN UTD OR CHELSEA

AND NOW

SOLVENT OR INKJET.


SIMON


nikon definitely :P
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:35 pm

I find crayons are best for high resolution with coloured pencils coming a close second, theres no fumes and you can eat the crayons you dont use after.
Always have your tongue sticking out whilst colouring.




And as a photographer, I use Canon, but there really is NO differenncein quality between Canon and Nikon full stop, they are both top notch and industry standard,
Unless you count the really high end hassleblads, mamiyas etc, but thats just showing off.
42 megapixel medium format blah blah zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Last edited by Steve Underhill on Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:36 pm

Steve you have been watching Peter :D



Lynn
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:38 pm

Lynn wrote:Steve you have been watching Peter :D



Lynn


Shhhhh Im not copying...


And in answer to your original question Simon,
youre not mad for buying the Epson........... It would just seem you are mad anyway
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:39 pm

Or sniffing those solvents :P

True about the cameras though - I have Canons and Nikons and can't make my mind up!
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:43 pm

lambretta
was Chelsea under the special one
nikon

solvent for general
Aquarius pigmented for the really nice stuff
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:44 pm

crayons Solvent or Eco

Hi Steve

I think you maybe taking the mick


maybe i need to join another forum instead of this one before i get lynched or wake up with a horses head in my bed.

I heared www.ukknittingforbeginners.com maybe quite good.
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:46 pm

Colin@BECC wrote:

True about the cameras - I have Canons and Nikons and can't make my mind up!


Thats true too, I have a d200 and d70 but a mate has a canon and he takes lovely shots too. An uncle of my wife is a professional photographer and he tells me that its all in the lens. It was good advice. I have been using consumer lenses, but the d200 came with a pro lens. A huge difference in the end result. The consumer lens is very good, but the pro lens is sharper.

Shouldn't forget the talent of the photographer to frame and take the shot either :P
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:48 pm

we don't kill horses here Simon



Lynn
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:50 pm

stick with it Simon,
we may appear to take the mick, especially Steve, as he dosnt know any different, but, we do (as a collective) know what we are talking about,
so it may help if you listen a bit more,

the advice given on this forum, is usually second to none.


Peter
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:51 pm

steve take the mick NEVER.

just watching man u might change my mind
:wink:
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:54 pm

All makes sense on my planet. :lol1:

The last time Peter woke up with a horses head on his pillow it was attached to the horse and enjoying a post coitus cigarette.
But that was in the 60s and it was ok

:rofl:
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Post Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:59 pm

If you go to any football stadium all the pro,s are using Canon because yes you are right the Canon range of lenses are better.

I run a Fuji S3 Pro which is actually a Nikon D200 body with a Fuji 12 Mega pixel Sensor, With a Nikon VR 18mm - 200mm Lense and a sigma 170mm -500mm lense which I use for all my Stadium Work, only a semi pro set up, but gives some lovely results.

I make a lot of money out of my camera, and would recommend anyone with a digital printer to get into a little bit of photography, it is a great tool especially when you can photograph a shop or factory etc, superimpose your
signage on and supply a visual proof to the customer.
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Post Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:04 am

Thats exactly what I do every sign I do, take the pics of the van/shop front etc and superimpose in photoshop first as a proof.
I only have a Canon eos 400d but I have taken pics with it and ranked higher in a couple of contests than people wih a 1DS so shows its not what you use but how yo use it.
Mind you thats a 10 megapixel camera and takes some lovely shots.
And youre right the range of lenses is second to none, especially with sigma and their lenses too.

Thats why I like the crayons instead of full solvent :lol1:
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Post Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:15 am

Crayons - solvent Eh?....

I love my Canon G9 - 12meg, same Digix 3 processor as the top slrs and fits in me pocket.

Used for loads of foodie shots sold as A1 size prints mounted on back of acrylic on stand-off fixings in canteens/restaurants - money for old rope and you get to eat the subject!

Colin
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Post Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:08 am

Colin@BECC wrote:Nick

I probably should have mentioned that I now have an eco solvent valuejet so know about the lower smell inks. However, I think you are kidding yourself to say they have no smell.

Our workshop and office are fairly closely connected and two of the females I work with complain quite quickly once the printer starts up (wusses!). I also understand that although they don't smell too bad, even the eco solvents are not good to inhale so wouldn't be so happy if it was in my home, around children.

Colin


No I am not kidding myself we do not find any smell from the inks, you get a smell of hot vinyl, I have been in a solvent ink print shop and you can smell/taste it all day when you come out :o
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Post Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:37 pm

I have joined this a bit late I know, epson vs Mimaki inks.

Unit costs per print i.e media is non coated and inks per square metre are more cost effective as well as the speed performance factor are just some of the solvent benefits where you also have the eco solvent low odour option.

Great quality at cheap unit costs vs great quality at a greater unit cost.

Garry
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Post Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:09 pm

Like Gary I'm a bit late joining in and I always like a good discussion as well :lol1:

I use to have an encad which was great for indoor graphics but I was never to confident with producing outdoor signage with it.
Tests I had done myself were never that great when left outdoors for long periods even with lamination.
Maybe I was using the wrong inks and should have moved from the pigmented inks I was using to something else, I'll never know now!!

Cost of media and ink I always found to be more than for solvent as media needs to be coated and of course as some have already said there are some media like wrapping vinyls that you just can't get at all.
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Post Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:14 pm

i think at least 99.9% of people will all have to admit that solvent is for outdoors and water based is for indoors. Its just the bottom line.

Water based can work but there is always a right way and a wrong way to do things.

Solvent to me is just better in the long run. Remember a 720dpi to most customers is as good as the best quality water based print. They just don't have the professional eye.

To me if you are supplying a water based print to a customer for outdoor application you are doing them in and they are paying good money for a product that actually is not right.
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Post Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:08 pm

Sorry, having owned both a proper pigmented (waterproof ink) printer and an eco-solvent printer I think I am qualified to disagree with almost everything said in that last post.
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Post Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:17 pm

After starting world war 3 I have actually gone in to hiding I am sitting on beach, sharing a cocktail with Lord Lucan and Salman Rushdie, I am the one dressed as mariyln Monroe.


But I must say I totally agree with Colin, I went and looked at a safety board this afternoon I printed on the machine, i dare not mention! some 30 months ago, (laminated) no crack no fade no peel 100% perfect, there is even a lot of warm red on the sign and there is no Magenta fade what so ever which is the first colour to go, I have been Told.

looking at it today i dont think it is ever going to fade!
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Post Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:36 pm

Simon, I wouldn't have said that you have started world war III at all, obviously people have different opinions about things and may voice those opinions but if it were to get out of hand one of the moderators would step in.

Colin, Having read a lot of the posts you have made about printing I would have to agree with you about you being qualified to answer the post above yours.

I don't know enough about the printing side of the industry to really make a valid comment one way or the other, having read some of the posts maybe I should have experimented with different inks with the encad and maybe I would have been able to manufacture outdoor signs that I was confident with.
I think that is half the problem with a lot of signmakers to be honest, we are told that you need to have a solvent or eco-solvent printers to be able to produce exterior signage and so we believe it.
Like Peter said in one of the posts above the sort of work that you are doing will make a big difference as some media is just not available for anything other than solvent printers.
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Post Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:39 pm

k3 ink is not water based it is pigmented

the difference between water based and pigmented

water based inks - The dye in the dye-based ink dissolves in water like sugar does in water -- completely.
You may notice fading of dye-based inks exposed to direct sunlight commonly in 6 to 12 weeks

Pigment inks are made up of particles are similar to large pebbles on a beach. It is much more difficult for sunlight and chemicals to react with all of the pigment molecules, since most of them are hidden inside the "pebbles". Pigmented inks will usually last for several years before fading becomes noticeable, and when protected from air and sunlight, these inks can last for many more years.

pigmented inks are not water based and maybe as good if not better than solvent
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Post Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:50 pm

Thanks Simon, yes I know the difference between Dye and Pigmented inks and the encad as you will know use to run both Dye and pigmented inks.
I use to use the encad GO inks and GO media when I was experimenting with exterior signage but I was never really happy with the end results, colours were not very good and I noticed a fading of colour after quite a short period of time even with lamination.
At the time I think encad said 18 months outdoors without lamination or 3 years with.
Like I say I maybe should have tried some third party inks to see if they performed any better but not knowing a lot about printing it is always difficult.
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Post Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:01 pm

re - encad

I actually liked the encad nova jet but it was back in 1999 when i was using it , cant really remember what the outdoor stuff was like, it was all supported by colourgen at the time and cost a fortune to repair out of warranty,

a friend of mine who currently owns an old one had the circut blow before christmas he was quoted a £1000 & labour for the board in the UK and was advised to throw it,, we contacted the manufacturer direct in china and he sent it over for £60 & vat and the export duties.



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Post Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:20 pm

Simon, I had an 850 60" which I bought second hand as a spares or repair for next to nothing, repaired it myself but had to source most of the parts from the States as Colourgen prices were just ridiculous (well I thought they were).

That was a few years ago and I don't think the parts were available from China at the time.

It's a pity I don't still have it as the quality was pretty good and I would have liked to try running it with a different ink set.
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Post Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:32 pm

re- encad

I am pretty sure it is being made in china and re badged somewhere else, could send you the contact details to buy a brand 1600mm machine new for £1050, but not sure if it wil contravene Site rules.
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Post Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:15 pm

well by now i hope that you have purchased your new epson and a lovely bit of kit it is too.

you really need to do a bit more research as this statement is err a bit wrong
pigmented inks are not water based and maybe as good if not better than solvent


this thread could keep going yet :wink:

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Post Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:28 pm

re more research, it all out there on the WWW

hi Chris

here the link to a website

Stating the difference between pigment and water base, i just condensed a few pages down in to 2 simple paragraphs.

heres the link


http://www.oddparts.com/ink/faq19.htm



have a read and let me know what you think
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Post Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:08 pm

not to good a explaining things so bear with me.

dye and pigment is the colour that is held in suspension or diluted in to a liquid.

hp and cannon use bubble jet technology also known as thermal ink jet, and has to be water based to work.

epson use a piezo head which can squirt water or solvent so its used in several types of machine.

solvent ink is a pigment held in solvent fluid.
i was told that pigment is very very finely ground rock and would explain why it lasts so much longer.
water based pigmented inks are best suited to micro porous media so that the water takes the pigments right in to the material.
solvent attacks the vinyl surface carrying the pigment in to the surface.

chris
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Post Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:08 am

i can see some very technical stuff going on here??

im not that knowledgeable. But i can see the idea that pigment could be different to water based.

What i do know is we are experiecncy outdoor temperatures of 45 degressC and i can promise you. I once printed onto a vinyl material and laminated it with a clear calendared vinyl and those inks lasted about a month and it ended up fading to white. So yes.. maybe in your climate water based or pigment inks can work. But here in africa it just aint possible.

From what i know most manufactures of these machines do not specifiy that the prints can last outdoors. But i can understand that maybe with the right UV laminate etc it could. But by the time you have done all this your print ends up being too expensive.

Again please understand this is my own thoughts and feelings.
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Post Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:15 am

one more thing i want to say is personally i think eco solvent is one of the few methods that have never been proven properly.
In africa this printing method just does not work as well. Many have fallen into the eco sol trap and have regretted it. Im not saying its bad. Because in europe the majority of guys use eco solvent and are very happy with it.

But i do think that there is a difference between true solvent and eco sol.

this post could heat up a lot of people.
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Post Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:17 am

:D :D :D (chat.)
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Post Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:53 pm

Just because you can't smell it that does not mean its not unhealthy.
You can't smell Carbon Monoxide and that will kill you no problem.
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Post Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:20 pm

Good point Martin, applies to Eco solvent inks as well.

Pigmented inks as used in the HP's and Epsons are water based, that is the particles (wether dissolved or suspended) use water as the carrier.
The inkjet head squirts ink onto the material and the carrier evaporates, this is the basis of what we commonly call "water based" same with paints, it's the evaporation of this carrier that causes all the health and safety worries so water is good and solvents arn't.

Steve

(edit) Most people know all this but there does seem to be some confusion being shown here.
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Post Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:29 pm

Forgot to add that I use both a solvent Uniform Cadet and a HP3000 with uv pigmented inks.
The Solvent one uses cheap media and seems to run for ever on little ink, the hp uses relatively expensive media and inks but they both have their uses and strong points, I've had some outdoor signs south facing for 3 years now and they don't show any deteration however they were sealed at the edges with the laminate overlapping onto the base, I've tried without this overlap and outdoor stickers have usually failed, the Cadet can produce outdoor durable signs or stickers that don't need laminating and again I've got stickers that have been outside and washed regulaly for over 18 months now.

I'm off out to play in the snow now so bye and have a good weekend.

Steve
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Post Sun Feb 24, 2008 3:06 pm

Re: am i crazy buying an epson 9880 for signage

Simon James wrote:So my plan is instead of spending £14,000 on a new 1300mm mimaki, but to keep the Mimaki for the quicky jobs but to buy the new epson 9880 44 inch printer which comes in at £3,700 which uses the same heads as the mimaki.

Am I about to make a mistake purchasing this piece of kit?
cheers
simon


Whatever happened to Simon?
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Post Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:19 pm

Re: am i crazy buying an epson 9880 for signage

i am still about, still havent bought the epson as yet, I am going to wait until the sign show and have a look about, may have a look at getting rid of the mimaki and maybe look at the new microweave system by uniform, a lot of good reviews about on the new uniform gear, almost half the price of the mimaki.


re- mimaki inks.

the last set of inks i bought are lasting well the first 6 sets of ink put through the jv3, were using an old firmaware 5.3 instead of 7.3 which was drinking the ink. (hybrid engineer updated firmware about 6 weeks ago)

i have been monitoring my inks on every job over the last 6 weeks by taking the ink out and weighing on a scales before and after every batch of prints and i know feel the jv3's are are very good on ink if the machines are set up well, if you turn the auto cleaning rate down to 24 hour cleaning and get a feel for ink coverage when pricing.

i have worked out the each ink set comes full at 840ml, the ink cartridges with adding ink at ink low
will go down to 425mls giving you an actual print of 415 ml. (the 425 being the weight of the cartridge and packaging)

my estimated print costs if anyone is interested

i have worked out each ml to be 15.4 pence
cleaning the machine once every 24 hours i have worked out you will use 1ml @ 15.4pence of each colour every day giving a cost of approx £30 each month for cleaning.

I have set my machine up on 720 x 720 dpi, got rid of all the deadbanding, got the prints looking really nice, 9 times out of 10 then i have been changing down to 360x6370 dpi and the quality on most things especially signs and safety labels is still very good.

if i am only using half the ink will the logetivity of the prints suffer?

weighing every set of inks before and after printing i have worked out

average coverage print 750mm x 1000mm on 360dpi - 4ml 60 - 80 pence

average coverage print 750mm x 1000mm on 720dpi - 8ml 1.20 - 1.60 pence.

just invested in an xerox dc12 SRA3 Colour laser and guilitoine, does excellent A3 onto labels or small safety signs laminated they make excellent and instant safety signage which runs out in seconds.




[right][/right]
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Post Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:31 pm

hi Simon we missed you
if i am only using half the ink will the logetivity of the prints suffer?


may be a little, would not expect it to, but see your reasoning.

what white S/A vinyl you putting through the laser as my suppliers came back with a really silly high price. got clear sorted but need white

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Post Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:47 pm

I pm'd you some time ago Simon but you didn't read it yet?
Nice to see your still about
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Post Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:07 pm

re- new laser and self adhsive waterproof labelling

hi chris


it is a self adhesive teslin paper sold by xerox 150 A3 Sheets for £128

85 pence per a3 sheet. it is a permanent Adhesive so it sticks really well. it needs to go through a laser on thick mode so you need a laser that will take 300gsm papers (thats why i went for a dc12 as it takes thick board) a lot of lasers struggle on stuff above 230 gsm.


PROS the dc12 is a great little machine, the icc profiling and pantone ranges are bang on, the photo quality is superb, it runs in seconds it fuses a gloss optimiser onto the prints which looks good,
CONS the machines are also a bit unstable and need to be cared for on a maintenance contract, Prints will fade if left unlaminated,

for anyone doing loads of labels ie. pipemarker locker names, safety signs very quickly and cheaply and with the confidence that the stickers will stick (opposed to giving the customer digital vinyls) these machines are a very good investment.
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Post Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:09 pm

what sort of laser are you running is it a dc12.


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Post Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:55 pm

its basicly a oki9600 which has been modified so they say and can take 300 gsm and more

i want a white like the polyester clear SA as the quality of small text is so good it would be ideal for what iam doing

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Post Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:03 pm

sample sheets

Hi Chris


I dont know anything about oki stuff, I could send you a few sheets to try out, whats the site rules about giving out email addresses, websites or mobile no.s


whats the best way of contacting you for your address


cheers



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Post Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:05 pm

Reading your pm's might be a clue
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Post Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:22 pm

if you can see my web site at the btm of this post


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Post Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:40 pm

cant see your website, is it becuase i am not a full member as yet



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Post Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:41 pm

the dc12 and the EX12 is a fantastic machine, also had the use of a 3535 to compare against. I understand a new machine is out now which is very nice indeed.

As you said, the maintenance contract for a DC12 is needed, the parts do break down, it is well known for it.

I don't recall the strenth of UV on this machine, I do know it puts a thin layer of oil on top of the prints, but I think the prints do hold out very well over time.

I remember Teslin, it is a wonderful fabric paper if i recall correctly, its just different beast. Also if you looking for papers for the DC12, you can wangle good Xerox deals on paper, there is some cracking stuff they produce. We used to hammer ours with book printing, but Xerox didn't like random makes of glossy paper, litho paper was a sin!

Lots of epson style machines around like the jV3, the interweave stuff is all very interesting as is the JV5.
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Post Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:17 pm

re - new generation lasers

Hi Dave


The UV. on the DC12 is crap a month or 2 at its best, although laminated i think its a lot more stable, would only recommend it for the indoor stuff like racking, safety signs, pipe markers, toilet doors etc.

the gloss coating i think is to give photos a realistic feel, although xerox has now done away with this function, the new replacement machine the DC 42 doesnt have a gloss fuser unit, becuase it runs twice as fast and wouldnt gloss at high speed, but i have been putting stuff through a freinds dc42, slightly better quality than the DC12, a lot less problems has the engine is all in one unit and you just pull it out and push a new one back in within seconds rather than having an engineers butt hanging out of the back of a dc12 when it goes wrong now and again. i have this theory that all lasers have been designed to be both serviced and repaired, they are certainly not as bullet proof or robust as a inkjet or solvent unit.

the other thing with the newer machine it doesnt work as well as the dc12 when putting thicker stocks through, paper jams a lot more on the newer kit.

I have been using both machines at a freinds copy bureau over the last 3 to 4 years and they have now tumbeld in price, some good deals out there to be had at the moment.
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Post Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:26 pm

Slight re-hijack and returning to cameras.

Personally my own pref is Canon. But as said it has much to do with the person taking the photo.

Someone I know recently got a Canon (40d i think), their first SLR and first decent brand camera. Well out of all the pics I have seen from them so far, only one or two have been correctly focused on the correct item. They try using it as a point and shoot and letting the camera do all the work. It's a shame as it's a waste of a good camera.

Ok hi-jack over :D
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Post Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:00 am

Re: am i crazy buying an epson 9880 for signage

Simon James wrote:just invested in an xerox dc12 SRA3 Colour laser and guilitoine, does excellent A3 onto labels or small safety signs laminated they make excellent and instant safety signage which runs out in seconds.[right][/right]


What deal did you get please simon?
Was it £x pw rental plus 12p per click please?
What guillotine did you get?


Lee...Camera thread ??????
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Post Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:17 pm

Re: am i crazy buying an epson 9880 for signage

£100 a month and 6 per a4 and 12p per a3/sra3 all consumables and all repairs

not bad for a machine that was £29,000 five years ago




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Post Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:24 pm

sounds good, didn't know they split the click charge between the sizes .
I take it that's a 12 month rent and not lease purchase though?

The thought of a £3k guillotine that I have been quoted puts me off, I wonder if a hand one would be an option?
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Post Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:27 pm

re - guilloitine

bought a brand new digital one off ebay for £550 looks ok will let you know when i get it next week.


yes 12 months no finance no purchase price

6p per a4

12 per a3/sra3


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Post Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:58 pm

was the guillotine a royal450 from radecal i have one

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Post Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:06 pm

yes i think so, please tell me its alright!



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Post Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:07 pm

If you meant me chris , no I was offered one from morgana at £3,995.00 + VAT. for the EBA 480 EP

As you know, w a y above my league :(
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Post Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:24 pm

Simon James wrote:yes i think so, please tell me its alright!



simon


NO ITS CR@P











...












only joking :D

one slight issue about the lower cards moving in the stack but i dont know if thats a problem with a £ 3000 machine

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Post Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:32 pm

£3k (!) (!) (!)

theres got to be a cheaper option for poor folk like me :D
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Post Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:27 pm

Re: re - guilloitine

Simon James wrote:yes 12 months no finance no purchase price

6p per a4

12 per a3/sra3


simon


Simon, could you possibly tell me who that was with please as my supplier wants £35pw which is £151.
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Post Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:08 pm

Re: dc 12

Hello Andrew

type in dc12 into ebay and you will see the deal, if you dont find it let me know and i will dig out the name. i know they are from lancashire



cheers




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Post Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:16 pm

cheers Simon,
I have found that.
Very interesting deal.
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Post Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:06 am

our rates were lower then that, but the volume was over the duty of the machine. However some fat payments to Xerox. grrr

I would check out some of the deals for the new kit, I don't think I would touch the dc12. I much preferred the DC 3535, a little flatter in colour but volume on SRA3 was much better


Morgana, we had one of them too lol

Just gloss papers and folders are not the best combination.
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Post Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:10 am

Sorta back to the original topic...there is a cast vinyl with air release available for aqueous printers. www.mediaoneusa.com. Haven't tried it yet on my Z2100. Also, Intelicoat offer a cast vinyl for aqueous printers.

I have some epson laminated prints (K3 ink) that have been outside, facing south, along side some Roland PC-50 (thermal) prints. The epson prints are 3 years old and still look great, especially since they are prints of the Canadian flag (RED). The Roland prints are faded, but then again these prints weren't laminated.

So far I've been having great success with my HP prints, although I laminate anything and everything that goes outdoors. My HP only prints 24" wide (44" is available), but it's great for quick prints / signage. I have a sub printer that prints larger stuff with their Mimaki solvent. My office isn't large enough for a solvent based printer, considering the need for proper ventilation.

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