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White foil for the Edge!!!!!!!!

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Kevin.Beck

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Post Sat Sep 13, 2003 5:52 pm

White foil for the Edge!!!!!!!!

Edge user`s.

What white foil do you use?

I`ve a job, that entails large areas of white foil onto black vinyl.

I`ve tried Durocoat, thought it was abit "wishy washy" (another tecnical term) Looking for something more opaque. (don`t want to go down the road of double prints)

Any suggestions!
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Rodney Gold

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Post Sat Sep 13, 2003 8:03 pm

Albeit Im not an edge user , wouldnt it be better to print the black onto white vinyl?
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Post Sat Sep 13, 2003 11:05 pm

Kev,

I realize that this recommendation, and that is all it is, a recommendation, isn’t the least expense option, but I’d encourage you to stay with Gerber White (GCS-10) for “White” use. They, Gerber, do/did offer a Super Opaque White under the GSX line of foils, but believe that it is currently off the market do to some “issues”. Some of the other manufactures offer “heavier” opaque White foils, but sometimes their performance isn’t as simple as load and print. From a Gerber perspective, under the GCS line of foils, White is the heaviest from a micron thickness and pigment standpoint. This requires some additional attention from a fire file setting standpoint (pressure, pulse rates, etc.) to which Gerber provides an answer directly within the software (i.e., they have done their homework). Some of the other manufactures products require some additional “tweaking”, which requires some experimentation time and good note taking from “your” end. Not impossible, not to be ignored or tested, but not always a “load and go” solution. Again, just a recommendation, not “gospel”.

If needing a “real” opaque area of White on a dark vinyl, you may have to “suffer” through some trial and error of the non OEM offerings if not desiring to do a double hit of White. As you already know from experience, this can at times be somewhat “trying”. Again, not impossible and not without reward in the end, just not always a simple solution.

Don’t be afraid to contact these vendors direct and ask them what you can do from a software standpoint to make their product perform for your given situation. They may tell you to switch to a different vinyl family setting (note that is setting, not to actually change vinyl), or to change the heat settings for the foil, or a combination of both. Of the handful of actual color foil manufactures (not product lines), most are very good about keeping copious notes for different films and machines. And if you happen to be doing something that they haven’t experienced before, you may make yourself a new friend that can be of great benefit to both parties in the future.

Rodney,

Not always. There are times it’s more beneficial to print a primer base with the intended color on top as opposed to printing Black. Some of those considerations are the actual design, desired gloss level, production time, labour time, material usage and cost, additional design considerations for color to color registration, and intended product use and longevity.

This is one area where thermal is still “tops” in my opinion compared to inkjets. They can produce a primer patch, or colored underlayment prior to applying the intended color. Ink can’t currently do that, and those that are spending R&D money in this avenue, to the best of my knowledge, are looking at White only solutions. Thermal allows for just about any foil color to be used in such a situation, not just White. And once White inks are ready for the market place, you still need a machine and software solution that will allow the end user to take advantage of them. It’s not just a matter of having a “White” ink.

Add to that the ability to produce double sided images as well as “mirror” style finishes with certain foil solutions and thermal has some additional life to go. Granted, it’s going to continue to lose overall market share, but there are still production concerns that thermal can currently answer that ink doesn’t.
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Dave Standen

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Post Mon Sep 15, 2003 10:47 am

White Foils

Hi Becky
I can send you a White Foil sample for Flood White to try if you like!
I'm sure it will do the job - 'suck it and see'
What's your address?
Regards Dave Standen
Last edited by Dave Standen on Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kevin.Beck

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Post Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:33 pm

Dave S.

Got the samples, thankyou. I`ll give them a go when I`ve got 5.

Great idea, using Gerber cases. Much easier to load than the Durocoat.

I`ll also contact Gerber for their white, so I can do a back2back comparison.
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Dave Standen

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Post Thu Sep 18, 2003 3:36 pm

White Foils

Hi Becky
Pleased your pleased. You'll find the OEM White more opaque than Renown Standard White - which is good for detail printing on coloured vinyl - but not as a slug of opaque white - Detail print only.
The Flood White should be about the same as OEM
Same rules - print edge to edge - all over the vinyl to avoid 'snow' in yer machine! Good Colour range isn't it ?
Regards Dave Standen
Last edited by Dave Standen on Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kevin.Beck

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Post Thu Sep 18, 2003 4:20 pm

congrats on your promotion to moderator........
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Dave Standen

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Post Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:06 pm

White Foil to moderator!

Hi Becky
Now watch me get my BEHIND kicked!
Regards Dave Standen
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Andrew Fleming

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Post Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:15 pm

The GSP OEM foils are not great in my opinion, which I have told them on loads of accasions, I use Signfoils over here, they have a new + range which includes white and black, the white has excellent properties and prints brill over any colour.
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Dave Standen

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Post Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:50 pm

White Foils

Hi Andrew
Am I right that your post is about OEM white foils only? I have always considered that OEM foils are to be considered the best (always gave them the benefit of any doubt) although the white was always found to be flaky and always made a mess in the machine.
You say that Sign Foils white is good? I haven't tried it. I've been told that Sign Foils wipes off with isopropanol and has little chemical leeching resistance - acts a bit like a resin/wax formulation. Is the white any different? Easy printablity but not as outdoor durable as you would like. Have you tried the isoprop. test?
From the info on your signature you must be pretty experienced with all that Gerber equipment.
Regards Dave Standen
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Andrew Fleming

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Post Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:56 pm

Dave

ALL the OEM edge foils are poorish quality, if you look close at them the finish is not as good as others, signfoils being the only one I have tried so far, I have tried the test and it has NO effect at all......
I have always been a big fan of GSP equipment etc and am a Beta tester for the Omega software, which is interesting, and I just love the edge and maxx machines. Especially now I can print 36" banners in solid spot and process with the best results I have ever seen, including inkjets.
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Dave Standen

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Post Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:38 pm

Gerber White

Hi Becky
Andrew from McMordie Bros in Belfast recons that Sign Foils white is excellent, but in his experience the OEM foils are not satisfactory - your gonna have to test a Sign Foils white! You'll get one from Europoint, I suppose you could ask for a sample!
Regards Dave Standen
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Andrew Fleming

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Post Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:10 am

A good visual test is to setup a 299mm x 299mm panel in composer, asign it a colour, then send to the edge, put in a GSP foil and print.....when you approx reach half way through the print press pause on the edge, then change the foil to an other manufacturers one, then press continue.

Now have a close look at the two differences, especially on tomato red....The OEM is blotchy and the signfoil is totally solid. A good test.

Gerber foils are all the same quality.
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Graham Scanlan

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Post Mon Sep 29, 2003 6:33 pm

white ribbons

hi Dave

i've heard that the signfoils + range has improved durability and the white is more apaque, infact with a double pass on black vinyl against a double pass on the oem, comes out better than oem's, have you witnessed this yet?

also do you encourage people to wash down prints with isopropanol?

cos last time i looked its not available through you local car wash.

does this mean if i put the ribbon in the oven to bake at 180c it also fails?

just a point!
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Andrew Fleming

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Post Tue Sep 30, 2003 9:16 am

The Signfoils+ range is filtering out as we speak, the white and black have been out now for a while, which both work on a single pass excellently.
They are now filtering out the rest of the range, I have done some beta on the process and some spots for the past few months, and comparing them to OEM........well lets say GSP are going to have some problems keeping up with the new standards. On 600dpi the halftones are unbelieveable in quality, I think the full range will be online by the end of Oct.

ps.....Just wait until you all try the protective clear foil, wooooowwwwww, and all for £30, per refill.
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Graham Scanlan

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Post Tue Sep 30, 2003 7:34 pm

foils

Andrew,

did you also see in the beta testing of the signfoils + range CMYK how close the colours are to the OEM's infact i think the flesh tones were even closer on signfoils,
Incredible output, and also the new cartridge is interesting, will be hard for the competitiion to keep up after the this year is over,and all the old stock will be gone, and all the + range will be shipped out. I also understand that the clear protective will be sold also as a UV inhibiter offering longer life than the guaranteed life of the foils.
[/left]
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Andrew Fleming

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Post Wed Oct 01, 2003 3:09 pm

the process colours are far more lifelike and richer, especially the skin tones, and the reds on something like strawberrys etc.
I have not seen the specs on the clear yet, all I know is it now works brill.
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Dave Standen

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Post Wed Oct 01, 2003 3:44 pm

White foils

Hi MoonBrat,
I've been away a couple day - sometimes you've gotta work!
I thought you'd lost interest?

Isopropanol Van Wash:
I know your post is 'tongue in cheek' however - Sign Rite in Wales, and probobly many other people clean down vehicles with a Meths & water solution to ensure good adhesion of vinyl. They were disappointed to see print on the vinyl running off because of an over enthusiastic application, or from handling a print with hands wetted by that solution.
I'm no chemist but
Isoprop. is a member of that chemical family, along with petrol and others

For people who are at the pointed end of the work - it's an issue
I don't apply graphics - but my clients do - I'm trying to help with probs

How do other folks out there prepare vehicles for graphics?

And now - wait for it - who do you think is about to launch a SUPER PREMIUM CMYK foil formulation for Gerber Edge users? I shan't bore you with the details but later this month it's available (with another white and black)!

So - Lorraine says you are a supplier - excuse my ignorance, I'm new kid on the block - what do you do in Manchester - we're neibours!
Best Regards Dave Standen

Apologies to Sign Rite (Wales) - I didn't ask permission to use your name.
Last edited by Dave Standen on Thu Oct 02, 2003 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Lorraine Buchan

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Post Wed Oct 01, 2003 5:21 pm

Hey you didn't ask for permission to use my name either - i'll be invoicing you for my £2000 appearence fee!!

I think this post has reached its end, You both offer a service of foils for the gerber edge lets leave it to the users of these foils to decide which they prefer, Europoints signfoils or Printones.

p.s I'd be happy to test them independantly and supply a full non bias opinion. But you will need to supply me with a gerber edge on which i can carry out my research, and then for my toubles allow me to keep the machine with a life time of foils :lol: :lol: :lol: worth a try isn't it !!
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Dave Standen

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Post Thu Oct 02, 2003 10:44 am

White Foils

Hi Lorraine
Thanks - Pennies have dropped now! Ching! Ching! Brain back into gear.
Sorry to tread heavily on particular toes - but I didn't know!
£2k is on it's way to U Lorriane!
Regards Dave Standen
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Robert Lambie

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Post Thu Oct 02, 2003 11:14 am

i use metholated spirits to clean down all our vehicles.

i made a post about 6 months ago but cant find it

(this has nothing to do with any type of ink, ribbon etc. im just mentioning what i have tried due to the nature of these replies.)
when looking at various printers, & the samples the suppliers had on stands at sign uk.. etc
i simply wiped the print with meths. one swipe and the printed vinyl was now brilliant white vinyl again. i dont know how many reps said, "yeh but thats meths mate.. blah blah blah.". but that was my test.
only gerber edge and roland prints stood the test.
what ribbopn was used to produce those prints? i havent a clue.

i think its just use a strong chemical to test the print, rather than the meths test.
meths is one of the most common used these days. so maybe thats why the choice.
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Henry Barker

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Post Thu Oct 02, 2003 6:25 pm

My experience with Signfoils on a truck was that it washed off the first time the truck was washed.

The guy came back and said notice a difference? I said "no" as it was completley gone! That was signfoils TTR5552 so that sort of put me off, I have about 15 of their foils which I don't use much now.

I have concentrated mainly on Gerber and Duracoat, and I really like Duracoat, also have their UV guard.

As for cleaning vehicle we use isoprop... and much more in recent times Avery Surface Cleaner comes in a box with 6 x 1liter spray flasks.

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