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Post Sat Aug 16, 2003 11:45 pm

Deep meaningful thoughts.................

If humans have evolved from apes then what have the apes evolved from? (?) (?)
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Post Sat Aug 16, 2003 11:47 pm

Chickens :roll:
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Post Sat Aug 16, 2003 11:51 pm

Rap and Hip hop singers (:)

or maybe football supporters :-?

Bikers even :-?

Boy racers :-?

CUSTOMERS :lol: :lol:
Last edited by Phill Fenton on Sat Aug 16, 2003 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Sat Aug 16, 2003 11:52 pm

If this is the case then was it from a chicken or from an egg (?)

Keith
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Post Sat Aug 16, 2003 11:55 pm

The apes don't deserve that Phil :D :wink:

Keith
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Post Sun Aug 17, 2003 4:11 am

Signmakers :lol:
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Post Sun Aug 17, 2003 11:54 am

They didn't, and they haven't

Man was created by God as accurately described in the Book of Genesis.

Your question (however serious or not) raises the interesting and difficult dilemma faced by evolutionists about the ape/man link.

The myth that we came from apes is deeply rooted in our education system.

But to look at this from another angle....I read:

‘No single, essential difference separates human beings from other animals.’ So began a feature article on evolution in TIME magazine (‘How Man Began’, March 14, 1994). So I guess this must be true, let's look at some "facts"?

For example, like humans, apes have well formed rational faculties. Their ability to develop an argument, follow a line of logic, draw conclusions and frame hypotheses is quite remarkable.

Also like humans, apes have a marked faculty for language. (This, of course, is intertwined with their powers of reason.) Their vocabulary is enormous, their grammar complex, and their conversations deep and meaningful.

The apes’ ability to codify language in writing is further proof of their close relationship to humans. In this respect, it was most gratifying to see the number of apes who wrote to TIME magazine in response to the article on ‘How Man Began’. I was particularly interested to follow the line of reasoning of the orangutan who argued that apes had evolved from humans, not vice versa.

Like humans, apes also have a strong spirit of inquiry. Their research in the fields of astronomy, mathematics, medicine and physics is noteworthy.

Apes also (again, like humans) yearn for meaning in life. This is why they devote so much of their time to philosophy, theology and ethics. The religious sentiments and practices of all apes can be traced back to their intense and endless quest for meaning.

Apes are concerned about questions not only of origin but also of destiny. The best proof I can offer for this claim is the maxim by one famous ape philosopher who said, ‘Whether my life leads ultimately to the dirt or to the Judgment, either way, I've got a problem.’

Apes also have, like humans, a refined aesthetic sense. They admire beauty and long to surround themselves with it. When an ape cultivates a garden, puts flowers in a vase, or hangs up a painting, what is it doing if not expressing a love of beauty?

Again like humans, apes have a strong creative impulse. This is seen in their poetry, painting, dance, drama and music. To a lesser extent their creativity is also evident in the way they gather in weekly craft groups to weave baskets, spin wool, knit shawls, and cover photo albums.

The sense of humour shared by all apes is another proof of their close kinship to humans. Their delight in the ridiculous and their love of a good laugh is plain from the popular ape jokes they tell.

Reason, language, inquiry, wonder, longing, religion, morality, aesthetics, creativity, imagination, aspiration and humour…such intangible but fundamental qualities are by no means unique to humans, as I hope I have conclusively shown. Therefore, in the profound words of TIME magazine: ‘No single, essential difference separates human beings from other animals’.
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Post Sun Aug 17, 2003 4:09 pm

And if we evolved from apes. Why are there still apes about today. :S

Another little point to think about: Humans share 99% of their genetic structure with chimapnzes, but we also share 50% of it with bananas (did i spell bananas right it's like Steve McManamanamanamanaman I never know when to stop.)
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Post Sun Aug 17, 2003 4:26 pm

Aliens.......We are advanced self-repairing, machines that have evolved, and taken over the world,
Our creators were forced to leave in fear of their lives

Simon :wink:
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Post Sun Aug 17, 2003 7:38 pm

I wouldn’t worry too much about our origins, making it through to tomorrow morning is far more important followed by what’s for lunch (?) :wink:




Alan
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Post Sun Aug 17, 2003 8:57 pm

Couldn't agree more Alan....

Did you know?

That if you have a roof over your head, a shirt on your back and food on the table that you are better off than 75% of the world's population!! A sad indictment on 'modern' society.

Following this train of thought a Chimpanzee with a decent fur coat, living under some idyllic forested roof canopy eating a banana.....with the added attraction of a bevy of bared bummed beauties to shower attention on is having a bit of a result (:)

To further compound the theory that Chimpanzees are brighter than most........ I've yet to meet one who is a West Ham supporter :-?
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Post Mon Aug 18, 2003 12:29 am

Oh absolutely brilliant Gray!

So who are the experts on this subject?
One would think the evolutionist spending all our money on their research

In their desire to find evidence of apeman some scientists have been taken in by outright fraud

For example, the Piltdown man in 1912. For about 40 years it was accepted as genuine by most of the evolutionary community. Finally, in 1953 the hoax was uncovered when modern techniques revealed that human and ape bones had been put together and artificially aged.

The point: These are the experts who's dribble our kids have to listen to at school

And the millions of years of man's evolution?
What about this from 'Popular Science', How Old Is It? by Robert Gannon, Nov 79 page 81

'Man, instead of having walked the Earth for 3.6 million years, may have been around for only a few thousand'

The British Museum contains man's history from times beginning but yet stretches back no more than 6,000 years!!!

John
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Post Mon Aug 18, 2003 9:15 am

I'm with Alan. What's for lunch.


John, the point is that the theories being put forward to our children in schools, and also to us on the likes of the Discovery channel, are just that, theories, not fact, and no reputable scientist would attempt to pass them off as such.

They represent a best guess based on the knowledge we have now and surely everyone should expect a theory to be modified, or even changed completely, as new discoveries are made. I don't find that unreasonable.

To give the Discovery channel its due, they often have programmes with "experts" giving opposing explanations for something or other and I think that's great as the discussion makes me think about it and allows me to form my own opinion. The stuff published by Graham Hancock is a good example of this in that he has a plausible theory, with some facts to back it up, but is he right? I don't know and I'm waiting for more hard information before reaching a conclusion, but there is nothing wrong in him putting his thoughts forward to stimulate debate.

And that's what we should be teaching our children to do, think for themselves.
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Post Mon Aug 18, 2003 9:45 am

Look out interesting debate alert, Gray I envy you your faith
The myth that we came from apes is deeply rooted in our education system
but the idea that an all powerful being created man is a lot more mythical than evolution theory, and the fact that its deep rooted is because evolution is the only plausible theory for us being here and I'm afraid I have to discount Genesis in the same way as the ones about us being put here by aliens :lol:

John, I worked at the British Museum for around 6 years and met plenty of people there that don't seem to have evolved that far :lol: but seriously in that time I saw a lot, read a lot and met a lot of very interesting, if slightly beardy, people that convinced me old Darwin was on the right track, Piltdown man was a very clever hoax but that is only one in many thousands of discoveries and many millions of man hours spent researching, and theorising and digging in the dirt, but like my dad says "son opinions are like a***holes, everyones got one"
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Post Mon Aug 18, 2003 10:07 pm

If we look at the theory that evolution is ongoing and mother nature always has something in reserve (just in case!) then perhaps the apes are evolving closer to us in readiness for.......................... (?) (?)

Keith
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Post Tue Aug 19, 2003 12:04 am

I think evolution is not just a theory but a reality. There is so much evidence to back it up. Fossils are very rare occurences, very few dead animals end up fossilised so it's no suprise at all that there are gaps in the fossil records. Fossils only tell us a tiny fraction of the variety of species that have existed.

Not only that, but we all evolve during our own lifetimes. None of us are the same people we were 5 years ago. Almost every atom in our bodies wiil have been replaced, and our personalities and appearances now are different from what they were a few years ago. (dig out some old photographs - or read something that you wrote some years ago - you will be suprised at how much you have changed).

The sad thing is nothing stays the same. The "you" that existed 5 or 10 years ago does not exist today. In another 5 years time the "you" that exists now will have also moved on and become something else.

The exceptions to this rule are Joan Collins and Cliff Richard :D

Sharks have also stayed the same for millions of years, but they have no souls and are merely machines with no conscience.

Dolphins are very intelligent (maybe as intelligent as humans) perhaps they have souls?

Perhaps only creature with souls continue to evolve - eventually to become perfect :D
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Post Tue Aug 19, 2003 12:32 am

johnchilds wrote: The stuff published by Graham Hancock is a good example of this in that he has a plausible theory, with some facts to back it up, but is he right? I don't know and I'm waiting for more hard information before reaching a conclusion, but there is nothing wrong in him putting his thoughts forward to stimulate debate.


Among other things , Graham Hancock wrote about the Sphinx in Egypt being much older than is currently believed. Evidence suggests that it was weathered by water at the end of the last ice age - which means it is at least 10 thousand years old and not 6 thousand years old as is currently believed.

This implies that civilised man has existed on earth for much longer than is thought.

In actual fact Graham Hancock was talking about the Sphincter not about the Sphinx (a simple spelling mistake). In other words - he was talking out of his *rse :lol: :lol:
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Post Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:14 am

The sad thing is nothing stays the same. The "you" that existed 5 or 10 years ago does not exist today. In another 5 years time the "you" that exists now will have also moved on and become something else.

The exceptions to this rule are Joan Collins and Cliff Richard


LOL :D
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Post Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:41 am

Hhmmm here comes the Scotsman to make a fool of himself again…

I believe that aliens found the earth. And used it to drop prisoners of their planet from over spilled prisons. Left to get on with it basically…
Could we have evolved from them?

Or…

Like the way earth is going now.. Ozone cracking up etc. left aliens no other choice but to move here from their own “now uninhabitable planet” & seek refuge with limited equipment etc and start again…

Or…

Same as above, but their planet was in collision course from a huge meteor!

They say because of the age of the pyramids they think it was actually aliens that made them and not man as first thought! Take the above scenarios and it may well have been!

Monkeys/apes?

I think it maybe monkeys that evolved from us! Or aliens I should say! Rather than vice versa.
Take a man, leave him in the mountains for many years. He takes on a hairier appearance, Looses clarity in his speech & lives like an animal to survive.
Lets say he mates and they have a child. Lack of education, proper speech they form their own ways of communication.. Almost chimp like?

This is my “sort of” beliefs.. :wink: :roll:
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Post Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:48 am

Steve I understand where you are coming from, your questions are very valid and let me say again, what ape, now or ever, even begins to question where we came from - as we are doing now?

However, rather that reinventing the wheel, so to speak, let me take the easy path here and invite you to glance over a very excellent website:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/

This is a non-denominational, tho unashamedly Christian group made up of scientists, teachers, professors, all kinds of professional educators who are also creationists.
They have some interesting answers to commonly asked questions, in fact, I suggest the Q&A page would be a good place to start.

It may be rubbish, or of some value to you, but it will save me a lot of typing, and allow you to persue the issue if and when you please without me boring everyone on the board here with endless debate :wink:
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Post Tue Aug 19, 2003 2:15 am

Rob, you have some creative ideas there!

Could it also be worth including in your list of possibles the idea that there just MIGHT be a wonderful, loving, all wise Being called God, Who created the earth and it's inhabitants out of the same love we as parents have when bringing our own children into this world, creating signs and building homes?
Further, could it be true that such a Being, if He exists, would leave ample evidence of His handiwork for us to examine and come to believe, a belief based on solid evidence, which is the foundation of faith?

I think there is evidence there, enough to convince the hardest sceptic if he or she is serious about wanting real answers regardless of what is commonly taught by schools or churches!

Rob, you might like to look at the link I mentioned above to Steve.
can't hurt! :lol:
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Post Tue Aug 19, 2003 9:47 am

Here's something to think about

The Genesis account of creation i.e. the order in which life appears is in line with the discoveries made by paleontologists and geologists.

1 A beginning
2 a primitive earth in darkness
3 Light
4 an expanse or atmosphere
5 large areas of dry land
6 land plants
7 sun, moon and stars discernable in the expanse, and seasons beginning
8 sea moinsters and flying creatures
9 wild and tame beasts, mammals
10 man

Science agrees that these stages occurred in this general order. What are the chances that the writer of Genesis just guessed this order? The same as if you picked at random the numbers 1 -10 from a box and drew them in consectutive order. The chances of doing this on your first try are 1 in 3,628,800!!! (<( (<(

Where did Moses get this information from? Remember he wrote this just some 3,500 years ago.

John

Ps. Who started this string anyway??
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Post Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:16 am

Each to their own beleifs
Mine is simple live a happy life and do what ever it takes to acheive it as long as you dont make anyone else unhappy along the way.

And Im positive

A Scientist.
A Religious Person
An Ape
And An Alien

Would Agree

Neil.......
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Post Tue Aug 19, 2003 2:16 pm

Neil, you're right and I guess we all want to be happy.
The test of our methods usually comes when un-happiness rears it's ugly head, when circumstances beyond our control appear, that's when the pudding gets tested.

I was reading today of a pastor and founder of a free (unregistered) church in China who has spent a long time in prison for his faith and has been tortured repeatedly and is now near to death because of it.

Wow, that's testing the pudding more than I ever hope will happen to me.
...no reflection on your beliefs at all, just thought I'd mention it. The communist leaders of China have much to answer for.
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Post Tue Aug 19, 2003 8:20 pm

keith wrote:then perhaps the apes are evolving closer to us in readiness for.......................... (?) (?)

Keith


Wait I saw a film about this once about a guy in a space ship that travelled into the future.



"You blew it up damn you"
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Post Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:56 pm

Jonalphsign wrote
1 A beginning
2 a primitive earth in darkness
3 Light
4 an expanse or atmosphere
5 large areas of dry land
6 land plants
7 sun, moon and stars discernable in the expanse, and seasons beginning
8 sea moinsters and flying creatures
9 wild and tame beasts, mammals
10 man


Couple this with Rob's theory and it could simply be the chronicles of an alien race who created the earth and how they did it.

Keith
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Post Wed Aug 20, 2003 1:21 am

I guess you're right Keith
Chronicles from an 'alien' race
Alien adj. = belonging to something else
[latin: Alienus-alius, = other]

Genesis account written by man, under inspiration by other? (God)

John
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Post Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:46 pm

Good point John. However I think in relies upon ones beliefs afterall the pharoahs were deemed to be gods!

Keith
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Post Wed Aug 20, 2003 11:26 pm

Yeah but the Pharoahs had their medicine men rub human excrement into any open wounds they had, believing it to have curative powers. Not very bright gods were they?

The Papyrus Ebers, a medical document of the ancient Egyptians, prescribed the use of excrement to treat various conditions. It directed that human excrement mixed with milk be applied as a poultice to lesions that remain after scabs fall off.

Certainly doesn't give me confidence in crediting them with the knowledge of how we got here!

Interestingly they are credited, by experts, with great wisdom in the field of medicines and poisons!!!
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Post Thu Aug 21, 2003 2:21 am

Oatmeal poultices work much better, those "gods" must be crazy. :lol:
However, the Bible speaks volumes on health and diet, and is STILL being shown to be accurate.

Many great men and women of science made their discoveries based on Biblical truth.
For example: Columbus discovered America believing the world to be round based on the Bible when all others believed the world was flat and that he would fall off the edge.

The truth and accuracy of the Bible continually amazes me!
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Post Thu Aug 21, 2003 11:46 am

Crumbs Gray:
Sounds like you're talking about that biblical passage in Job 26 written 3,500 years ago: "He is stretching out the north over the empty place.
Hanging the Earth upon nothing"

or the one in Isaiah 40
"There is one dwelling above the 'circle' of the Earth"
The Hebrew word 'chugh' can also mean sphere

Funny how Christpher Columbus was credited with discovering this thousands of years later isn't it? :D

John

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