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Versacamm or OrangeJet ?

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Post Wed Mar 15, 2006 5:25 pm

Versacamm or OrangeJet ?

Hi all,

My new venture entails short run decals from approx 3" up to 550mm square. Now ive been told to either go for the Orange PrintJet or a Versacamm 300. From reading in here i can see lots for the Versacamm but not much on the Orange PrintJet 300.

Is anyone using this machine? from the info i was sent it seems my answer but the other day i got info for the Roland machine...it comes in at nearly £2000 cheaper.

I guess im after ££'s per sq mtr savings really like most people. the machine i need isnt for signwriting so UV inks arent essential but scratch protection is...to about a 60% necessity. I wont be using expensive vinyl as these arent long term stickers BUT they do have to be cleaned from time to time so i wouldnt want the inks to come off or be removed by window cleaner solutions like Cif, Cillit Bang etc etc. basically theyre huge window stickers. My longest run would be a 1000 (at 5" square 3 colour, but mostly not even 50 at a time) and some runs will be 20 @ 550mm Sq. using 720dpi.

What would you guru's go for ? :P

Im open to all suggestions so please dont hold back...especially at my naívety lol. im only a newbie at print and cut :D

cheers all

Dave.

apologies if this in the wrong section...its a "general2 kinda question i hope ;)
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Post Wed Mar 15, 2006 5:40 pm

Dave I guess you had the details from ourselves regarding the OrangeJet.

Just to make you aware that we are now authorised to supply the VersaCamm model you also mentioned in your post.

Nigel
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Post Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:34 pm

Hi Nigel...

Yes i certainly did get the info from you :)

Im deffo getting a machine...im just after some more opinions on what to get. Its a lot to lay out but im willing to do it, i just want the best for my particular business thats all.

Super huge thanks to Neil there for his help so far, hes a top bloke and has helped enormously.

I really dont want to eBay for a printer because ill lose warrantys and stuff, so new it is. I just need about 8K now lol.

Cheers Nigel, please pass my regards onto Neil. ;)

Dave.

P.s. Ill be using GYP for my purchase ;)
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Post Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:36 pm

Dave
I done lots of research into all the versions of the Roland and the thing that most concerned me was the ink types.
The solvent ink machines are much better than the non!
I've just purchased a Uniform Cadet and its a fantstic machine. The inks hardly smell and they dont rub off!!

Tony..
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Post Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:09 pm

BUT they do have to be cleaned from time to time so i wouldnt want the inks to come off or be removed by window cleaner solutions like Cif, Cillit Bang etc etc
some of those chemicals are very strong so i would recomend a laminate and it would only need to be a cheep one.

chris
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Post Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:36 am

I agree with anthony here. Solvent is the way forward unless your prepared to laminate everything. The inks are not too bad for odour. The more coverage the stronger they smell. Pretty much scratch resistant too.

Got to take care of solvent machines though. Very easy to skip a clean, and get waste tubes, pump, or maybe even the heads!!

Hey chonga. Where ya from??

Matt
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Post Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:47 am

The cleaning thing on the solvent machines was an issue I was worried about but the Cadet cleans itself on a regular basis in its auto programme
and the weekly manual clean takes me 15 mins!! Not an issue as long as u look after it!

Tony..
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Post Thu Mar 16, 2006 7:39 pm

Anthony,
For some reason mine doesnt "auto clean". Will have to speak to b&p about that.

Matt
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Post Thu Mar 16, 2006 7:46 pm

Matt,
The self clean is a new thing added to the cadet only in the last few months,this is what the guy told me from Signmaster. My machine is only afew months old.
You could might b able to get this added to your machine just depends how much!!
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Post Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:05 pm

I beleive I read somewhere that the autoclean only comes on when the machine has sat idle (on standby) for a week or so. This is a feature of the Versacamm and presumably also therefore a feature of the Cadet (though the clean isn't often enough for solvent ink). I believe that B&P service engineers will change this on existing Cadets when on a call out so that the auto clean happens on a more regular basis if the machine is idle for any length of time.
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Post Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:30 pm

Hi Phill
The auto clean on the new cadets comes on every 24 hours plus machine does cleans when in use and you can also select to do additional cleans from the menu.

Tony.
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Post Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:57 pm

Which 30" laminator would best suit the roland versacamm 300.
I'm looking for a cold machine.
I'd appreciate some advice.
Thanks fellow signmakers!
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Post Thu Mar 16, 2006 10:18 pm

Thanks for the info phill.

Got a problem at the moment. Its got really bad banding. Only in the blk, green and cyan. b&p couldnt get anyone out to me till next week, so they sent out a new pump, wipers, and solvent tube. ive done this before so no problems to fit them. But this hasnt cured the fault. I'm giving it a head soak overnight.

It's a strange fault. The in-built print test looks fine. Not much sign of deflection. But when i run the ai print test which includes, green, cyan, yellow, magenta, red, and black. The banding is very visible.

It's hard to describe, but when the ink is laid down on the cyan and black, you can see what i can only describe as "tram lines" in the banding. Sounds a bit obvious but rather hard to explain. I would post a pic but theres far too much glare off the medai when i take a photo or scan it.

I'll have to wait for an engineer to find a solution i suppose. Down time though. Agggrrrr.

I wonder if dave rowland is reading??????

Anyone got some suggestions? Cheers

Matt
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Post Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:22 pm

Your banding is almost certainly the head which needs changing if it can't be soaked out.

The Cadet will do a "clean" cycle every 24 hours when the latest internal drivers are installed. Do not rely on this for long term shut down as it is not a real clean. I have found 3 days to be the limit to be off or banding is likely to startup.

Peter
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Post Sat Mar 18, 2006 12:08 pm

The OrangeJet is a Versacamm, just re-badged or re-named is it not?
If so, it's either an equivalent to the cadet or the original Roland machine.

That comment about using full solvent over eco is mis-leading. When i first started researching inkjet i was also sold on that argument until i came across the max inks which changed everything....
the decision is now more considered than ever before, and as a user of full solvent print in the past, i would tell anyone that you CAN rub off the print from any type of solvent/eco solvent inkjet if you try hard enough, neither version will 'fall' off but neither is totally abrasion proof either.

Laminating is the only real answer to that, as has been mentioned many times on here.
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Post Sat Mar 18, 2006 2:47 pm

Paul,
I considered the Orangejet and the inks it uses I was told are eco inks made by a US company called Triangle. I went on the safe side and got a Cadet full solvent which i beleive is stronger than Max inks but maybe not as bright.I've had no problem with ink rubbing off. Also the orangejet is Orange!!!!!
Tony..
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Post Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:21 pm

Paul,

I have a Cadet and can assure you that you can't rub the ink off. You will destroy the vinyl first. This was not true of the original versacamm inks which rubbed off quite easily but I understand this is greatly improved with the Max inks.

Peter
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Post Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:45 pm

Peter,
Thanks for the reply. Have soaked the heads as i said. But with no result. Engineer time i think.

Paul. I have never used mav inks so cant comment on them. But as far as abrasion goes i'm with peter. You will rip the media before the ink comes off. Obviously if your attacking it with a scotch pad or sand paper then maybe so. If i feel that the print will come under a lot of abraision then i use graffityp liquid laminate, or get the auto painter next door to spray them with clear laquer. I've had no comebacks yet. :-?

Matt
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Post Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:15 pm

Is that liquid Laminate any good Matt, what finish does it give the graphics?and is it easy to use?.

Tony..
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Post Sat Mar 18, 2006 5:28 pm

Tony,
Yeah. The liquid is good stuff. You can buy it in a spray can, or in a 1ltr container and apply with a painters pad. Another make is frog juice, although never tried it. Seems to stand up well to abrasion. Trouble is you have to be fairly good with a spay can, and it smells quite a bit. Also it will not stretch on curves either.

But for the average flat application it will be okay. i'm on the hunt for a small laminator. But i'm having trouble finding a second hand one to suit 760 width as i'm a bit short of floor space, and have a budget to stick to.

Hope this helps

Matt
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Post Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:47 pm

We laminate prints by hand. Its no more difficult than laying vinyl. So if you don't have a laminator, don't assume that they are essential for laminating.

Peter
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Post Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:16 pm

Thanks everyone for your very helpful replies. sorry ive not checked back, ive been working away since wednesday...

i didnt really want to get extra kit like a laminator but it seems it might be the way if i want this feature of the inks. Seems i got some extra costing to look at now :-?

@ Matt...im from Swansea dude :wink: theres quite few Taffs here i can see as well...nice one heh.

cheers all, ill get back

Dave
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Post Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:11 am

Dave,
I'm in the vale of glamorgan, between cardiff and bridgend. If you want any advice or a try of the cadet dont hesitate to drop a thread and you can "try before you buy" :D

I know there used to be a supplier of the "big red" (i think thats what is was called?) in swansea, which was also a re-badged cadet. Have'nt seen them in the trade mags recently though?

Matt
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Post Sun Mar 19, 2006 11:32 am

Dave mate, get to the show in the nec in may, good chance to see all types of printers working. As well as pretty much every aspect of our trade. Was a real eye opener for me last year, as it was my first time at a sign show!!! Walked round all starry eyed. Like a kid in a sweet shop :o

I'll try not to miss another one either. Definately worth going before you get the cheque book out.

Theres lots of members going. It will be good to meet everyone. And a chance to buy some drinks for all those who have helped me out in tricky situations. And believe me there have been MANY of 'em. Wallets gonna get a bashin' eh :D

Hope to see ya there matey

Matt
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Post Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:28 pm

pshaw wrote:Paul,

I have a Cadet and can assure you that you can't rub the ink off. You will destroy the vinyl first. This was not true of the original versacamm inks which rubbed off quite easily but I understand this is greatly improved with the Max inks.

Peter


Peter, that's interesting....

With the max inks, you can't actually get them off but you can smudge the print if you really rub it hard.
We used to do a lot of trade printing using output from the grenadier, the elan, the scitex and the arizona, to mention a few, and the prints could all be smudged if you tried hard enough to do it.

Maybe the Cadet uses improved inks then?
If the ink is really that resistant to abrasion, is it worth laminating at all?
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Post Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:03 pm

is it worth laminating at all?


We often put out prints without lamination depending on their usage. No complaints yet! Of course you need to consider physical damage, chemical damage and UV fade. So if a builder wants a picture on his van, and the van never gets washed and will be changed or wrecked within a couple of years, he can have the cheaper option without laminate, once I've made him aware of the facts.

Peter
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Post Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:33 am

The Cadet prints with the Activasol inks (full solvent) do scratch, you may not be able to smudge them but the ink is only on the surface still.
I've said this in the past but if you get the head cleaning solution and wipe a old print with it all the ink comes of leaving clean vinyl so from that I can only assume it doesn't actually eat into the vinyl surface.
Having said that the vinyl does go very soft with a good ink load.

Steve
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Post Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:52 am

Quite so, Steve

Wiping any solvent ink with a solvent will dissolve the ink regardless of whether its digital print or screenprint etc. The original Versacamm ink would wipe off with meths too!

This doesn't change the points about physical damage, though.

Peter
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Post Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:18 am

Hi Peter

That's what I was saying but got lost the moment :-?
I guess what I'm saying is that given the choice now I'd go for a Versacamm with Max inks, they also seem to be cheaper and all the prints I do that may get physically damaged I laminate so the advantage of the solvent inks is nearly gone.

I print my own company stickers when I've no print work on to keep the printer running ink and where I've put them on say my mobile phone the print has been worn away in my pocket.

So given the maintenance issues and smell etc with Solvent I think the one to go for would be the versacamm, less wear on the print heads, longer periods without needing to print, less smell, cheaper inks.

Steve

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Post Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:21 pm

Steve,

You may be right if the new Versacamm inks have improved enough. Of course there's nothing to stop Cadet or other Versacamm conversion owners from switching back. It's only a flush and fill and new profiles. (Oh no not new bloody profiles!!!)

Peter
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Post Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:45 pm

I asked about this Peter and apparently independent engineers say that you'll have to change the dampers and heads as well as the inks are not compatible.
Don't know how true it is, anyone care to comment?????

Steve
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Post Mon Mar 20, 2006 5:27 pm

Well,
Finally managed to get an enginerr out tomorrow(tuesday) with a pair of new heads!!!! at laaaaaaast!!!! a result.

After all this hassle, i'm really considering switching to max inks and taking the plunge with a laminator. As i'm a one man band right now i'm looking for peace of mind with the machine. So yes stephen you have a point with the versacamm mate.

I will wait to see what the show has to offer first.

Oh, and i will let you know how i got on with mr engineer. Any tips gents. Do i get him in a half nelson and refuse to let go 'till he gives the cadet a "once over". Seriously though, is there anything i should know about before he arrives.

Matt
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Post Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:05 pm

engineers say that you'll have to change the dampers and heads as well as the inks are not compatible.


To my knowledge the heads are the same. I would assume that as the pipes and pump are upgraded to resist solvent ink, there is no requirement for a backward path. I didn't think the dampers were different on the basis that a faulty damper when my machine was new, was blamed on Roland from when it left their factory. You would need the latest firmware downloaded into the Cadet for the Max inks setting but I assume that B & P Engineers do this as matter of course when on site.

I wonder what changing inks will do to the warranty?

Peter
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Post Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:34 pm

What changes on machines depends on the type of solvent used and its agressiveness. I do not believe the heads are changed on any conversion on the roland machines (Epson DX3 heads), pumps , pipes, dampers and perhaps wipers and capping stations are. If your machine is equipped to handle agressive solvents than going backwards to eco or mild solvents is a snap , just flush the system and change the inks. (PS we never changed the firmware or profiles when going to max inks FROM ecosol and we are running just fine , in fact we never even flushed the machines but just used max carts when the old ones ran out)

Ink that dissolve substrates for better adherence lead to problems in other areas
For one the prints often distort or stretch badly and affect glues in areas of heavy ink load and are difficult to apply (and the solution to that is laminate them to make em easy to apply) but more importanly the definition of the system is compromised. the definition of the system is based on how many discrete dots it can apply to the substrate and these are combined to represent pixels (the TRUE resolution of the system is how many pixels and not dots it can represent in one inch)
Using an aggresive solvent does not allow the dot to "sit" on the substrate and the solvent to flash off without significantly "spreading" the dot , it becomes bigger (imagine a blot of paint on something like blotting paper)
So thus you lose the advantage of the high definition heads and you have paid extra for a machine whose capabilities you can never use
Worse than that cos of the way a machine produces colours (It can only print 7 colours using any cmyk ink) you run into dot gain and reduce the colour gamut of the machine as well as losing delicate tonal gradations or the ability to do superfine work.
You might as well have bought a lesser machine which was designed from ground up to use those types of inks. There is no point at printing slowly at 1440 dpi where all the machine can really do is 360 dpi or so , you would do better to buy a faster 360 dpi machine.
There are also substrates apart from vinyl that a lot of digital printers use and there is no advantage to using agressive solvents on these in that they actually damage the substrate and reduce the life of the print. A coated paper will not benefit in the least if a more or less agressive solvent is used as the ink carrier.
It really depends on what you do with your machine as to whats important to you , giclee type printing has different requirements to inexpensive lower reolution full colour printing on pvc and vinyl and so forth.
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Post Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:05 pm

Thanks for the replies guys.

Another excellent post rodney. You never cease to amaze me. So much technical info!!!!

So what are the max inks like? How fast do they dry in comparison to solvent ink?

Am i right in saying that just a hot swap from solvent down to max inks will be alright with no problems rodney?

I will carry on until my current carts run out and see how things are going then. I'm probably over-reacting to all this, as i never expected to be changing heads less than 8 mths down the line. I'm very meticulous about cleaning the damn thing too!!! Just glad i'm covered. Pheww

Thank's for the info gents. Will post progress tomorrow night.

Matt
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Post Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:25 pm

matt.
imy machine a sc540 pro 11 started life on sol ink then to ecosol then to max inks i resisted the full solvent route all along as i have always thought it to be to harsh for a machine that is not running allday long.
the max inks have solved all the previous problems and are a kinder alterative to full solvent.
max inks very fast drying touch dry off the machine at 40 deg setting high scratch resistance full solvent may be a little better but not much i feel no need to change again for any of my work.
as far as going from full solvent to max inks.i would not expect the two inks to like one another so properbly a full flush out but cant see why any parts to be altered. a superb set of profiles for max inks fron allprint supplies for colour rip.
ps my machine is over 3 years old and i have just changed the black print head.
chris
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Post Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:32 pm

Vale
I would NOT do a hot swap from a solvent to max inks AT ALL!!! I would never take that chance without being 100% sure a mixture of the inks would not be harmless , I would definately do a flush with the solvent cleaners that are used with the MAX inks.
Max dries a lot faster and thus allows a heavier ink load withoud bleed or puddling and thus abraisive resistance and other attributes are enhanced , you pay a price tho , max inks require (in our findings) about 20% more for the same type print if you want to take advantage. You would get acceptable results but lose some resistance if you did print without loading inks.
Having to change heads in a 8 month period especially with meticulous cleaning and low useage is rediculous. Im not sure how your warrantee reads but when we had to change a head on our solject , the service tech printed out a report as to how many billion dots it had printed and we paid a pro rata price compared to how many billion dots it was warranted for , but we were using Roland OEM inks. It was no where near full price.
You might try reclaim the heads or there might be a place near you that can repair them (ultrasonic clean , acetone wash etc?) so at least you have a set that is not dumped and can be used in an emergency (assuming you can align the heads for which you will need a service manual and possibly specialised firmware or tools).
You might even find the tech guy doesnt HAVE to change heads as you did mention the test print (inbuilt) was fine , if the heads had gone that print would be FAR less than fine. It would be glaringly obvious with droputs and tons of missing lines.
If I were trouble shooting this at my business , I would do this
1) Do a Test print and make sure its not a software/cable thing
2) Environemental calibration
3) media calibration
4) Clean head surrounds
5) Clean wiper and sponge pad
6) slow machine down and try different media at differnt resolutions
7) After checking and reseating carts , do head cleans from light to heavy
8) do a flush
9) soak capping station with flush and leave the heads capped overnight
10 )Replace or check dampers
11) Replace or check lines
12) Replace or check capping station
13) replace or check pumps
and as a LAST resort if any of these ffialed to rectify thing , change heads. I would do it more or less in that order too.
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Post Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:55 pm

pshaw wrote:Steve,

You may be right if the new Versacamm inks have improved enough. Of course there's nothing to stop Cadet or other Versacamm conversion owners from switching back. It's only a flush and fill and new profiles. (Oh no not new bloody profiles!!!)

Peter


haha, quite right too....if you get a good profile, stick with it!!

What Steve said is exactly the point i've tried to make in other threads too...basically, that was the conclusion i ended up with i.e. once laminated, the advantage of full solvent is negated, so the new versacamm was an easy decision, bearing in mind this machine really is maintenance free.

Six or eight months ago, i probably would have gone for a cadet though, i still think it's a good full solvent machine for a good price.
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Post Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:07 pm

Thank's Chris. Obviously by what you are saying here, the max inks are are lot "kinder" to the running gear of the machine running them. Certainly a point to keep in mind. Thankyou

Rodney. Sorry. Got side tracked. :oops: I can't read properly!! Thought you were running solvents. Doh!!

I,ve done everything in your list, bar check / replace the capping station.

Pump changed, new solvent tubes, wipers, many, many manual cleans, even more powerfull cleans, kills me 'cos of the wasted ink.

Also perhaps my previous post was slightly misleading. The cadet i bought, was supposedly EX-DEMO. Personally I think I was extremely mislead by the seller. I certainly wasnt told how much work it had done in terms of dots etc. I'm guessing it's been highly used. Hence the head problems. I havent even started to really work it yet, to its full potential.

I will ask to keep the heads as you suggest and see if i can get them cleaned. I'm sure you said this in a previous post rodney.

Many thanks for all your advice stephen, chris, rodney and so-on. I'm off to watch the footy now. Man city vs west ham. So not being rude if your posting guys. P.S Looks like i'll be taking a couple of barrels to the show. :lol1: :D :wink:

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Post Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:24 am

Heres some first hand info on different inks.
We've had our 52" Cadet for just over a year and in that time we have had constant problems and had an engineer visit every month.
Apart from minor circuit board faults the machine eats the heads.
We had four new heads in a year. They seem to be fine for a few weeks then the banding starts. Each time the engineer says the heads are ok from the print test pattern but this prints at a higher pass and won't show faults at lesser passes. Our problem was always at 8 or 16 pass this would cause banding. Now I know the print is not going to be very good at 360dpi 8 pass, but it should be grainy but not have banding lines. When the heads were changed, for several weeks after it would be fine, but before that we had to use 32 pass to get a decent print and to eliminate banding. Now you can't always print at that speed, For one it takes to long and second that quality is just not required for some jobs. Each time the head was changed the problem stoped for several weeks.
Finaly after telling them to collect the machine on several occassions and various arguements with B&P and spire who supplied it we decided to try different inks and for the past month have been using Uniform Citrosol inks. We had new heads, Dampers and pump. To make a fresh start. They would only do this after we agreed to take out the service contract though. Now this prints just as you expect at 8 pass but we only need to print at 760 16 pass for good quality and as yet have not used 32 pass.
Now heres the crunch ! This was the only option left to us as its been mentioned here before that if you have a converted solvent machine then its easy to go back to Roland inks but it is definately not !
B&P Informed us that unless we use only Citrosol or the original Activasol that the machine came with then they would not cover the warranty.
So we thought we'll bypass B&P and go straight to Roland and put the machine back as it was when it came out the factory.
So we asked Roland about the Max inks and they said that in order to run their inks they would insist that the machine goes to their workshop and they change every part that has come into contact with the Activasol inks Eg... Heads, Pipes, Dampers, Pump, Everything, and this would cost upward of £3000 and they would not cover the warranty or service unless this was carried out.
So in my experienced opinion the solvent ink is too strong for these machines and If I could go back then I would buy from Roland.
I Have mentioned here before and some people disagree, but cadet prints are not scratchproof ! If you rub the back of your nail on the print then it comes off !.
We laminate everything so decided why keep damaging the machine with these inks when you still have to laminate anyway.
By the way, All the heads are the same and they come from Epsom.
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Post Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:02 am

mmmm......
Sounds like you've had a real outing with your machine mart !!!!

I only hope that you're wrong mate? Dont really fancy that.
So what you're saying mart, is that if want to drop to a "milder ink" then i am invalidating my warranty? Sorry but thats's a bit of a sore point. uuurrrrgggghhhhhh. Warranty. Not gonna go into it mate. I might be tempted to say something i should'nt about the supplier.

Are you saying that your running eco-inks now?

Anyway, had the engineer out today. Both heads changed, all dampers changed.

Heads were then calibrated. Runs like it should now. Finally!!

I will speak to somebody in b&p tomorrow and see if there are any issues with the service agreement against the inks. For now though i will carry on with activiasol, and see how things go. If it aint broke.............and all that ha ha. Hope you have a bit more luck in the future.

Matt
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Post Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:23 am

Martin
I have had my Cadet 30" since January and Ive had the banding problem when printing on Banner and the thicker the banner the worse it is. It was for a lady who wanted the print bang on so i must have spent 2 days trying to get this solid chocolate brown to print without banding but couldnt eliminate it entirely. Ended up printing it on banner 360x720 Norm 2 on full scan uni-directional, and I prefed the banner which seemed to help. Dont no about banding on vinyl as I havnt done any big solids on this and it seems ok on general text and logos.
Are your probs on vinyl or banner? If im getting banding does that mean my heads are naff!? My machine is spotless I use it at least once a day and manual clean it once a week.
Are uniform citrosol ink more prone to rubbing than the Activasol and are they brighter and smoother when printed??
Do u think my machine setting could be changed to improve the banding ?

Tony..
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Post Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:43 am

I Think you will always get banding of some sort on banners due to the make up of the material.
We are now using Citrosol inks Which are supposed to be the Uniform Equivalent of Eco sol Milder inks, So hopefully less wear on the machine.
The smell is not the same its much nicer as it don't settle in the throat like Activasol, but it scratches off very easy.
If you want to check your heads then print a logo at 8 pass 360 dpi and this should come of dotty but not banding, (providing your using the right profiles and not trying to go too fast). You should be able to print something at a reasonable quality but don't expect to get good solid colours on large vector images. I will try and post a picture later of the difference with the new heads.
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Post Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:28 pm

This is a example of the banding. The one on the left is with new heads printed at all the same settings, Profile ect.
Image
Last edited by Martin Oxenham on Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:02 pm

Martin.
Looks like one or more of your dampers have gone to me mate. The banding i was getting was a lot worse than that. Have you tried three or four powerfull cleans? Or pulled ink through at the joins in the tubes between the capping station and the pump. Also the pumps are the weakest link on these without a shadow of a doubt !!

I've been been through 3 already in less than a year. Saying that, the first 2 i changed seemed like different "models" if you like. Slightly different casing and tube exit points.

When you powerfull clean it does it pull plenty of ink through the tubes?

Hope you solve your problems martin. Theres nothing worse than your machine playing up and not knowing how to fix them !!! Have you got a service agreement? I know it's sometimes dead money but for peace of mind...... Sometimes it seems like for nothing. But trust me it's worth it. Sh$t...... I sound like a loreal ad. lol lol :-?

Matt
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Post Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:50 pm

Looks like the typical banding prior to a head change to me! Seen it too many times!!

How about deleting your piccies and putting smaller ones on or this string will take ages to load each time we look at it.

Peter
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Post Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:21 am

Perhaps mine were exceptionaly bad then peter? Very hard to tell with a photo though. B&p tech guy said my banding was a combination of heads and dampers faulty.

Is the yellow banded too ?

Matt
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Post Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:48 am

Sorry about the size of the pictures but not sure how to change that.
The picture on the left is how it is now with the problem sorted after new heads etc. If you read the post, the banding was before the inks were changed to Citrosol.
One thing that really annoyed me was that this happened on several occassions as you will see from the post ( four head changes) and each time I was told "thats not really that bad some people get worse than that and are quite happy". WHAT !.... So some people are used to this are they ?.
Ok ...if the machine was like this from the start then I would accept that you can't print at that resolution...But when you have previous examples,
of jobs printed before and they look fine but now you cant re-produce them the same, then something is wrong !
I will let you know how the inks perform over time. As i said, they have been in over a month with no problems....Touch wood.
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Post Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:31 am

B&p tech guy said my banding was a combination of heads and dampers faulty.


Much the same as has been said to me in the past. Replacement has cured the problem.

Many engineers try to say the banding is normal. The problem lies in the signmakers community that has been fobbed off with this and accepts it. My reference is to the machines on display at Sign UK that did not show any banding. If they didn't nor should mine.

Having said this, an amount of slight banding may may be emphasised by a poor profile. I am critical of many substrate suppliers who do not do their job properly and fail to supply correct machine/RIP profiles matched to their material. I spent half a day this week to vastly improve the output on backlit polyester from one of the major suppliers who "haven't produced a profile yet" and suggested using a generic profile.

Peter
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Post Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:54 am

Having to replace your heads 4x is totally crazy , we have run our soljet for almost 3 years and have never had to do anything as radical , we replaced ONE head and only paid a pro rata amount for it. If that is the norm , there is something seriously wrong somewhere.
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Post Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:15 pm

I totaly agree with you Rodney, Each time they tried to fob me off.
They don't like giving you new heads FOC.
Sorry about the original image size but Ive now figured how to change it.

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