• Wikileaks?

    Posted by Robert Lambie Robert Lambie on November 29, 2010 at 10:29 pm

    Been watching this on the news, i bet there is a few loosing sleep over this mess.

    $this->auto_embed_video(‘http://www.youtube.com/v/z1pTl8KdREk?version=3&hl=en_US’, ‘560’, ‘340’)

    link to the site, but seems to be some broken links, or maybe the traffic is too high and the server is struggling.

    http://www.wikileaks.org/

    .

    Harry Cleary replied 13 years, 3 months ago 15 Members · 49 Replies
  • 49 Replies
  • Hugh Potter

    Member
    December 1, 2010 at 12:06 pm

    that site should be shut down the those responsible for the leaks locked up for treason!

    seriously, the whole point of a ‘secret service’ and ‘official secrets’ is to keep things secret!

  • Jason Xuereb

    Member
    December 1, 2010 at 12:10 pm
  • Shane Drew

    Member
    December 2, 2010 at 1:01 pm
    quote Hugh Potter:

    that site should be shut down the those responsible for the leaks locked up for treason!

    seriously, the whole point of a ‘secret service’ and ‘official secrets’ is to keep things secret!

    Totally agree Hugh.

    I see Amazon was hosting the bulk of the site, and has since told the wikileaks organisation to ‘get lost’. They shut down the site, which explains why no one can access it.

    Last thing Amazon would want is to get the US government off side.

    I think the guy should be locked up for a long time myself. He would have put a lot of lives at risk. The australian government apparently are to issue an interpol arrest warrant for him, but I think his rape cases will have him more worried.

    The guy is a tool frankly.

  • Nigel Hindley

    Member
    December 2, 2010 at 8:55 pm

    cant see him staying alive for too long.

  • Bill McMurtry

    Member
    December 6, 2010 at 12:48 am

    Amazing how people can be so opinionated when there are so few available facts. For a start, the rape case against him was dismissed a long time ago. In politics who can tell the difference between truth and lies and spin? But hey, don’t let that get in the way of a good old fashioned lynching 🙄

  • Peter Mindham

    Member
    December 7, 2010 at 9:54 am

    If the actions of this buffoon endanger life and national security of any company, then he should be bought to task. The rape charge is a way to get him in the hands of the authorities at the moment. The man is an idiot if he thinks this will be allowed to continue. If any friends or relatives of his supporters get killed because of his actions, I think he might have trouble finding anyone to harbor him.

    As has been stated, national security and secrets are there generally to protect people.

    I say put him in the tower.

    Peter

  • Harry Cleary

    Member
    December 7, 2010 at 10:48 am

    One man’s statesman can be another man’s oppressor. So opinions on who exactly these secrets are protecting will be open to debate.
    To think that in this day and age that you can keep stuff secret is the biggest foolishness here, if it’s not Assange releasing this stuff, it will be somebody else.
    Assange may be wrong, evil, a saviour or a hero, but one thing is guaranteed, he is not alone.

  • Peter Mindham

    Member
    December 7, 2010 at 2:00 pm

    I agree Harry if its not him its someone else. The question is motivation. Is he doing it because:
    he can; Because he has a deep desire to bring down a couple of administrations; Because he is being paid to do so; Because he believes in total transparency at all levels.

    Who knows, but the underlying issue is that whether he is on someones payroll, is a liberal minded zealot or is is just plain mischievous, doesn’t alter the fact that he is acting in total disregard for hundreds if not thousands of peoples lives here. This is a very serious situation of which no good will arise.

    Just my opinion tho

    Peter 🙂

  • Bill McMurtry

    Member
    December 8, 2010 at 2:54 am

    Which document threatens thousands of lives? Certainly not the one that discloses the view that ex Prime Minister Kevin Rudd is a control freak with questionable judgment :lol1:

  • Peter Mindham

    Member
    December 8, 2010 at 9:51 am

    Note past tense for ex Prime Minister Kevin Rudd. Gordon Brown was a control freak. (admittedly one of his lesser problems) and where is he?

    There are documents leaked regarding targets and locations which could be compromised due to these leaks. If you do not think this assists terrorists in their operations you are missing the point by a wide mark.

    Peter

  • Bill McMurtry

    Member
    December 8, 2010 at 10:59 am

    Sorry Peter, but I don’t think we’re on the same page with this. Being forced to sell freedom for security seems like a recipe for disaster to me.

    Terry Gilliam’s ‘Brazil’ comes to mind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcKlDMYnmug&NR=1

  • Andy Regan

    Member
    December 8, 2010 at 11:07 am
    quote Harry Cleary:

    One man’s statesman can be another man’s oppressor. So opinions on who exactly these secrets are protecting will be open to debate.
    To think that in this day and age that you can keep stuff secret is the biggest foolishness here, if it’s not Assange releasing this stuff, it will be somebody else.
    Assange may be wrong, evil, a saviour or a hero, but one thing is guaranteed, he is not alone.

    He’s not the Messiah, he’s a very naughty boy!

  • Harry Cleary

    Member
    December 8, 2010 at 12:24 pm

    I think the real threat to people comes from the activity of greedy governments. Al Queada wouldn’t exist where it not for western foreign policy over decades if not centuries.
    Policies carried out in our names.
    Sovereignty has never been respected by the super powers when oil and money comes into the picture.
    This country (Ireland)has just been sold to the IMF and Bondholders)
    Some are off the view that it is because the bankers of the world cannot afford to take the losses their greed and irresponsible activity has caused them. The lies, secret deals and downright greed and cronyism is obscene when you set it against the damage caused to ordinary people. The ordinary person who is being made to pay for something they were not involved in. The little man looses again.
    You may think that you are being protected by your governments, that is just an opinion though….me?….I prefer transparency, overall it’s safer to keep these guys activities in the open!
    And the lesson for them is that the internet is going to keep them under scrutiny and therefore honest. Hopefully
    😀

  • Bill McMurtry

    Member
    December 8, 2010 at 12:44 pm

    I like your optimism Harry.

    Uh oh, stranger and stranger :lol1:

    quote :

    Behind the alleged rape charges against the founder of Wikileaks Julian Assange, appears CIA’s collaborator Anna Ardin, a Cuban woman linked to terrorist Carlos Alberto Montaner…

    …The lawsuit against Assange, strange but apparently according to Swedish law, is for having had sex without condom…

    http://www.plenglish.com/index.php?opti … 6&Itemid=1

  • John Hughes

    Member
    December 8, 2010 at 1:00 pm

    Well said Harry.

    John

  • Peter Mindham

    Member
    December 9, 2010 at 9:10 am

    In principle, I don’t disagree with the comments made. Those who know me understand my dislike for government in general and the hold they have on the populace. But until somebody comes up with something better, the democracy we live in is the best alternative.
    Have a look at todays Times. Page 22. Hackers who are sympathetic to Mr Assange have attacked many sites including Pay Pal, Mastercard and lawyers involved in the evolving case around the rape allegations. The problem is, Mr Assange may have good intentions ( I’m not sure what they are however) but there will always be people who want to take it a step or two further and compromise the freedom of others who just want to ‘get on with their life’.
    You should also read page 33 of todays Times. David Aaronovich hits the nail on the head. Mr Assange is no Robin Hood. He is exposing OUR secrets. Our government, OUR secrets.
    I think we may never agree totally on this subject. The actions of Wki leaks and many associated with it are at best irresponsible and potentially, border on treason.

    Peter

  • Peter Mindham

    Member
    December 9, 2010 at 9:17 am
    quote Harry Cleary:

    I think the real threat to people comes from the activity of greedy governments. Al Queada wouldn’t exist where it not for western foreign policy over decades if not centuries.
    Policies carried out in our names.
    Sovereignty has never been respected by the super powers when oil and money comes into the picture.

    😀

    Harry,
    without being presumptuous, but surely, the main catalyst for all the major conflicts in history have and will continue to be religion. Oil, greedy governments and any foreign policy doesn’t come into it my friend.

    Although I am not a fan, John Lennons death is being remembered this week. (remember where you were when you heard?) The song ‘Imagine says it all don’t you think?

    Peter

  • Matty Goodwin

    Member
    December 9, 2010 at 11:53 am

    How the F..k did John Lennon come into this?

    Great musician but no politician!

    He wrote music while drugged out in the 60’s!

    Poor relevance Peter me thinks………

  • Harry Cleary

    Member
    December 9, 2010 at 1:31 pm
    quote Peter Mindham:

    without being presumptuous, but surely, the main catalyst for all the major conflicts in history have and will continue to be religion. Oil, greedy governments and any foreign policy doesn’t come into it my friend.

    Peter

    May have been the case in history Peter but the great modern wars are about oil and who controls or owns the supply. The powers that be are quite happy for it to be seen as a Muslim/Infidel thing though.
    Part of that attempted control is censorship or suppression. What Assange has exposed is the long held belief that there has been an alignment of predominantly western or old world powers and corporations whose aim is to control those areas that have resources.
    I believe that governments must have a facility to act in secret (Our own peace process may not have happened had not the British Gov. and the IRA been allowed to meet in secret.) But a facility to act illegally must never be provided.
    As I said …out of such activities are the likes of Al Queada allowed to form and fester.

    Of course there is also the emerging theory that Assange and Wikileaks is just an elaborate scheme to control the internet.
    U.S. Republicans have long been envious of the British ‘D-Notice’ system of controlling the media. (AFAIK, introduced to control Irish republican access to the airwaves)
    First you demonstrate that Wikileaks is a National threat, then you show that stringent and urgent security measures must be taken, therefore everyone must ‘license’ to a control point (the government) their websites or they will be taken down.
    Freedom of speech is suddenly gone and freedom of the press is non-existent and spooks and the corrupt are free to do as they wish. That’s not a world I want to live in.
    Transparency keeps everyone honest.

  • Peter Mindham

    Member
    December 9, 2010 at 2:39 pm

    I think we agree on much of this Harry. I will still maintain however, that we have to trust our governments to hold ‘secret’ aspects of our national security and foreign policy to keep our shores safe.
    Matt, the only reference to Lennon was to include his song and its sentiments in the conversation. He was just a musician after all 😉

    Peter

  • Harry Cleary

    Member
    December 9, 2010 at 5:55 pm
    quote Peter Mindham:

    Matt, the only reference to Lennon was to include his song and its sentiments in the conversation. He was just a musician after all 😉

    Peter

    😀 😀

    I prefer this one in the context of the discussion 🙂
    $this->auto_embed_video(‘http://www.youtube.com/v/8dHUfy_YBps?version=3&hl=en_US’, ‘560’, ‘340’)

    Actually that’s quite good…..John Lennon night tonight.

  • Alex Pirozek

    Member
    December 10, 2010 at 9:12 am

    In my opinion Wikileaks are just the vehicle in supplying the hidden information to the world. There is a reason for everything and genuine people that are privy to this info at source know that what goes on behind the scenes is not humane or right and needs to be told.
    You are not told by the biased media the true picture. Silencing Wikileaks will only create more anger on the internet as we are already seeing with these so called support groups hacking sites.
    Genuine people are out in support for Julian Assange even though they have never met him or know much about him. They are there because they are informed and realise that this is about more that a few secrets getting out into the public domain.
    This fight is more about keeping the internet and free speech from being censored by the governments as they already talk about kill switches on sites or the entire web in times of crisis, these are the real dangerous people and not Wikileaks or other messengers.

    The governments know that an informed population is a dangerous one and that is the real reason they try and keep all this kind of info locked up under the “National Security” banner is to keep them safe from us and not us safe from so called terrorism.

    We are all being conditioned into what to think, do and believe in that what the governments do or the war’s that they enter in are all done to make the world a safer place for the future. Well I’m sorry I don’t see a safe world out there at all at the moment at all.
    This info must come out to keep our governments in check and work in our best interests and not there’s.
    Some will and have said that release of this information will cost lives, we’ll I believe we would have saved a lot more lives if we weren’t in these illegal wars or participated in state sponsored terrorism to start with.
    I am still glad we have a chance to have different opinions as reflected throughout this thread and long may it continue…..

    Peter, the John Lennon “Imagine” lyrics are spot on but somehow I’m not sure we’ll ever live in that kind of world because of the corrupt governments we have, yes I know it’s always been like this but it still doesn’t make it right.

    George Orwell once said:
    During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.

    $this->auto_embed_video(‘http://www.youtube.com/v/ckgSPPc-Cw4?version=3&hl=en_US’, ‘560’, ‘340’)

  • Shane Drew

    Member
    December 10, 2010 at 10:53 am

    The problem I have with the wikileaks idiots is – who made them the last word on what we should and shouldn’t know?

    If he released sensitive documents against russia and china, he would be a dead man walking.

    Anyone that doesn’t already know that governments say one thing and do another is a fool. But, posting sensative documents online to embarrase governments is just another form of terrorism. Who made this idiot the thought police anyway.

    He could very easily start a war if the more volatile countries spoken about misread the texts, or are looking for an excuse to become aggressive.

    The last time I looked, England, America and Australia where all democracies. If you don’t think your governments are honest, vote them out.

    Now we have a Labor minister in Oz being seen as an American spy. I don’t like the guy, but I see nothing sinister about keeping an allied country ‘in the loop’ with what is going on within our own political scene. His own career and reputation is being damaged as a result.

    I do have issues with the american consulate knowing there was going to be a leadership spill over 3 months before the australian public was aware of it, especially when we were told by our female prime minister that it was a last minute decision based on opinion polls. Shock… Horror… we have discovered the politicians lie? who’d have thought that?

    The real issue here is that people are trying to martyr the guy, justifying all sorts of illegal activity like hacking VISA and MasterCard servers. How long before some nutter decides that those ‘spys’ need to be exterminated for the betterment of the country?

    This will bring out the radicals ‘looking for a cause’ to be radical and vigilante, all in the name of justice.

    And who polices the wikileaks power brokers? When wikileaks becomes all powerful, do you think we’ll live in a better democracy? I’d suggest not.

    To quote a well known phrase "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" – Lord Acton

    Truer words have never been spoken.

  • Harry Cleary

    Member
    December 10, 2010 at 12:09 pm

    Which is fine if you are a net beneficiary of the activities of these ‘democratic’ governments Shane.
    But what if you are not? What if you are being bombed into the ‘acceptance of gifts’? Like the citizens of Iraq? My moral compass begins to spin wildly on that one.
    There is a sizeable percentage of the world that think that it is wrong and that secret alliances to achieve ulterior motives are also wrong.
    We in Ireland are hurting from our ‘democratically elected government deciding to accept an IMF bailout that mortgages the country for several generations.
    The people had NO say in this whatsoever. That too is wrong and the deals are shrouded in secrecy.
    People keep saying that the release if these documents ‘threatens thousands of lives’ while ignoring the indisputable FACT that the some of the documented activity has resulted in the actual deaths of thousands IN OUR NAMES. (Capitals for emphasis not shouting 🙂 )

    Mao Tse Tung was asked if the French Revolution was a good thing in the 1970’s…’it’s too early to tell’ was the reply.
    The same is true of Wikileaks, it’s too early to tell. But it’s motivations and morals appeal to me more than some Western government’s do, at the moment.

  • Bill McMurtry

    Member
    December 10, 2010 at 12:13 pm
    quote Shane:

    The last time I looked, England, America and Australia where all democracies. If you don’t think your governments are honest, vote them out.

    Vote them out in favour of what, an equally dishonest opposition? Of course another choice might be to just not vote for any of them at all. Surely that might send them a message? But in Australia not voting is breaking the law and that’ll cop you a hefty fine, or worse. Check and mate.

    Democracy operates like mob rule. Ask most voters what they think democracy means and they’ll probably say something fanciful like ‘freedom’. Of course these same voters haven’t a clue what they’re voting for – all politicians are liars right? :lol1:

  • Bill McMurtry

    Member
    December 10, 2010 at 12:15 pm

    oops 😳

  • Shane Drew

    Member
    December 10, 2010 at 12:57 pm

    I agree with you both of course. For the record, I’ve never voted, so I have no interest in politics at all.

    But, the question remains, who made this guy our moral compass? And, are they any more honest that the rest?

    The way I see it though, with sewing dishonesty and hidden agenda’s in the political realm, anarchy and vigilantism is what the world is beginning to reap.

    Unfortunately, the worlds moral compass is so far out of whack, there will be no ‘happy ending’ in this whole debate.

    End of the day, the world powers have tried AUTOCRACY / DICTATORSHIP / DESPOTISM, COMMUNISM, CONSERVATISM, DEMOCRACY, FASCISM, IMPERIALISM, MONARCHY, PLURALISM, PLUTOCRACY, SOCIALISM, ANARCHISM / NIHILISM, LIBERALISM (CLASSICAL), LIBERTARIANISM, OBJECTIVISM, CAPITALISM, THE REPUBLIC or THEOCRACY like that of Iran, and some religions preach THEOCRATIC based on rule by God.

    With the exception of the Theocratic option, all have been tried, and all have failed. Wikileaks may have the best intentions (I’m not totally convinced about that) but how will it help when the major players in the world can’t agree on the basics, and traditionally, the voting public always want what is best for ‘them’ with little thought for others.

    Personally, I think wikileaks is more about power for his organisation than it is about making the world a better place.

  • Alex Pirozek

    Member
    December 10, 2010 at 6:25 pm

    Slightly off topic a little but maybe if we had politicians in power like Nigel Farage who don’t seem to worry about speaking their mind, maybe just maybe the people might start believing that the politicians put the peoples interest first. We live in hope but that’s always tomorrow and never today!!

    Incidentally Nigel Farage is known to have these outbursts in Brussels especially against Herman Van Rompuy, he was in a plane crash in May 2010 on the last day of campaigning on the UK general election in which he and the pilot survived. It was recently reported that the pilot has been charged with trying to kill him, now this latest outburst in Brussels…. he must be feeling very brave??

    $this->auto_embed_video(‘http://www.youtube.com/v/Fyq7WRr_GPg?version=3&hl=en_US’, ‘560’, ‘340’)

  • Bill McMurtry

    Member
    December 10, 2010 at 10:43 pm
    quote Shane:

    But, the question remains, who made this guy our moral compass?

    Huh? No one is claiming any moral direction here at all. This has nothing to do with morals. We don’t need morals and ideologies messing up free journalism too. We can go to China or Iran for that 🙄

  • Shane Drew

    Member
    December 10, 2010 at 11:19 pm
    quote Bill McMurtry:

    quote Shane:

    But, the question remains, who made this guy our moral compass?

    Huh? No one is claiming any moral direction here at all. This has nothing to do with morals. We don’t need morals and ideologies messing up free journalism too. We can go to China or Iran for that 🙄

    I disagree Bill. His initial motivation was based on a moral view that governments are immoral in they way they ‘do business’. He set himself up as the moral compass right from the start.

    He is no journalist either. The legal people are painting him that way to help their argument and garner public sympathy.. He is also accepting money from big business, so its hardly free journalism in that regard. Is he going to publish documents that will embarrass his financial supporters? I doubt it.

    He is also assuming he is our moral compass because he is leaking selected data to promote his ‘views’, he is deciding what is right and wrong, he is deciding what we need to see, he is deciding when to release data to get the most impact.

    His legal team are positioning him as a Martyr. I wonder if the wikileaks group will publish their ‘private or secret conversations’ within their office as to what people within his legal team think of his guilt or innocents on the rape charge. Will they be transparent and publish what they have discussed about what they will do to get him off the case, or their views of the Judge handling the case, their personal comments in regards the way they will manipulate their argument?

    All major legal firms have specialists in house that know the Judge handling the cases views on a range of things. They discuss how they will argue their case based on their knowledge of the Judges bias on certain subjects.

    Based on the wikileaks argument of ‘no secrets’, I wonder if we’ll be given the same insight into their own secrets behind closed doors?

    I bet we don’t. And I bet if wikileaks turned their attention to the legal profession, publishing documents exposing plea deals and favours to crims in exchange for a better insight into the ‘enemy’, we’d be having a different discussion.

    I’m no fan of governments at all, but anyone that set themselves up as he has, a secret organisation with no accountability to anyone other than themselves is a scary and hypocritical as the governments they are trying to blackmail and expose.

  • Phill Fenton

    Member
    December 10, 2010 at 11:38 pm

    Maybe I’m being a bit Naive – but didn’t the USA produce a freedom of information act a few years ago? So how come the furore when information is passed out into the public domain?

    I used to think democratic countries like USA and Britain were open but now I’m not so sure.

    This whole episode makes me question the realities of so called "free Countries" – are we really a free country (Britain) when the majority of its citizens opposed the Iraqi war? And why do we have troops in Afghanistan?

    I’m passionately opposed to Britains insistence on measures to reduce CO2 emissions but there isn’t any party I can vote for that would share my views – and even if there was – they (just like the liberals) couldn’t be trusted to keep their word on their election manifesto.

    Meanwhile – our so called "expert" politicians send British troops to their deaths in Afghanistan whilst sanctioning the decommissioning of the Ark Royal to save money. And pump Billions of pounds into subsidising windmills that are the most ancient useless pieces of technology ever devised for producing energy.

    Common sense tells us all, that with the current severe winter we are experiencing – the myth of global warming has been exposed yet still the government in power (any party – they’re all the same) ignore what is a blatant truth.

    There is no Global warming

  • Harry Cleary

    Member
    December 11, 2010 at 12:12 am

    If the only thing Wikileaks achieves is the elimination of spin and gobbildispeak then it has done a tremendous service. It is long past time that our politicos stopped treating us like idiots.

  • Harry Cleary

    Member
    December 13, 2010 at 7:11 pm

    Interesting

    $this->auto_embed_video(‘http://www.youtube.com/v/NhTfOL9_HBE?version=3&hl=en_US’, ‘560’, ‘340’)

  • Alex Pirozek

    Member
    December 15, 2010 at 7:09 pm

    Yes interesting indeed,
    if anyone cannot be appalled by that footage of the innocent slaughter of humans then there’s no hope for them. This is why the truth must come out whatever the consequence’s will be, the problem in my opinion may lie on how much or what is released.
    Just try and put yourself in that position if it was you and your family in that van, even if you survived that would be enough to send you on a warpath against the perpetrators for the rest of your life….i know it would me!
    Empathy is the human safety net and once you remove that by social conditioning then there are no boundarys. Just look at the TV and computer games now and compare that in real life…. there isn’t much difference is there.
    It will only get worse as drones are now used that can fire weapons with operators miles away looking at screens just like the games. How long will it be before these are turned against you or I in the future.
    As the saying goes
    "One mans terrorist is other mans freedom fighter"

    it’s all down to individual opinion.

  • Peter Normington

    Member
    December 15, 2010 at 8:42 pm

    the "leaks" are what we all assume is going on behind the scenes,
    people get killed for no reason, just to show how "strong" the "peace" keepers
    are.
    govenments dictate, even though they may be democratically voted in.
    once in power they do as they told by the by the rich and powerful, the ones that line their pockets, not the electorate.

    Peter

  • Alex Pirozek

    Member
    December 15, 2010 at 8:53 pm

    A must see if you missed it last night on ITV1

    "The war you don’t see" by John Pilger
    http://www.itv.com/itvplayer/video/?Filter=198443

  • David Rogers

    Member
    December 15, 2010 at 9:51 pm

    Phil, the governments of the world disbanded the whole idea of ‘GLOBAL WARMING’ years ago…

    …it’s now conveniently called ‘CLIMATE CHANGE’ to cover ALL fluctuations from the perceived norm.

    I distinctly remember being warned in the mid 80’s as to the scientific FACT that we were entering another mini-ice age…then they spotted this HUMONGOUS hole on the ozone layer…and the Antarctic ice shelf falling to bits…then the worst (insert weather phenomenon) since records began.

    In the words of the eloquent Private James Frazer "we’re doomed…"

  • Hugh Potter

    Member
    December 16, 2010 at 10:14 am

    taking all politics aside (ok, mostly), the western and muslim worlds have been at loggerheads since the crusades, while neither side may be right in a peaceful and idyllic world, the fact is that we still continue to fight to this day, regardless of what it is over, be it oil, religion or politics.

    to openly give out information which names various companies which help or aide the gov’ts, that have gov’t contracts (arms etc), to hand over information which people have signed the official secrets act to protect and keep safe, is nothing short of treason.

    why do we have the right to know everything that goes on? if it wasn’t for the likes of james bond the planet would have been taken over by baddies a load of times! ok, that’s tongue in cheek but what should we do, just get rid of the intelligence agencies and leave it to be a free for all?

    could you imagine if we’d done this 70 yrs ago? we’d all be chatting in German. secrets are there for a reason, anyone divulging them, either leaking or publishing, should feel the full weight of the law, right down to anyone reproducing the text, even if only done for copyright of the written word.

    leaks put people’s lives are in danger, possibly people you know and, certainly a couple of people i know, where do we draw the line on transparency and giving the details away?

  • Ben Childs

    Member
    December 16, 2010 at 1:10 pm

    My 2 pence worth……

    I agree with the majority of sentiments on here, it shouldn’t have happened as could be a genuine risk to security in some cases.

    I don’t think anyone is qualified to comment on whether it is or isn’t a security risk because quite simply no one knows the full content of all 150K cables that were intercepted.

    Whether the full content, or Assange’s motivation will ever be known is another question – all we can do is comment on the morality of the situation. Personally I feel that the reaction by various Gov’t and world powers suggests that some of the info is sensitive and not for public domain. I certainly do not want to know all the dirty details of what my Gov’t does to keep me safe(ish). Having read some of my Dad’s extensive books on WWI and WWII I have seen that certain things were done out of the public eye at the time that probably won us the wars. Years later these secrets were released and praised. The flip side is there are bound to be some mistakes or botched jobs (Diana, the use of British passports by Israeli Mossad recently) that shouldn’t see the light of day.

    Question I ask myself is do I want my kids growing up in a world constantly on red alert because some numpty upset the wrong people by leaking sensitive info? Answer is no. Secrets are secrets because (right or wrong) people want to keep them that way, has to be a reason behind it.

  • Peter Normington

    Member
    December 16, 2010 at 11:14 pm

    We are all assuming that governments can actually keep secrets,
    unfortunately in any organisation, people can be bought to pass on information, and if they cant, then they can be blackmailed. its naive to think that "our" secrets are not passed on to others, all the major powers in the world spend fortunes to acquire "secrets" the ones that need the info have ways and means to acquire it.
    its just that the powers that be, would rather not let the general public know the truth.
    espionage is a very complex subject, and for most people (me included) cannot be imagined how it works, its a game for people with very high intelligence and an ability to double or treble bluff with stone cold expressions, like poker but playing with 25 packs at the same time. so the "leaks" will not aid anyone to gain an advantage, they have already been stopped up….

    Peter

  • Harry Cleary

    Member
    December 17, 2010 at 12:13 am

    The age of noble and heroic defense of your ‘national’ interest is gone.
    The world is now controlled by vested interests……certain countries & certain corporations. The modern world is miles away from what pertained or what was being fought for at the outbreak of WW11.
    Assange and his helpers (me included) realize that simple fact.

    Shell Oil buying off and infiltrating the Nigerian Government is in nobodies interests…neither Hugh Potter’s, Ben Childs, mine or anybody else’s only Shell and their beneficiaries.
    And don’t get sold on the ‘secets’ nonsense…if Wikileaks have it Al Queada and any revolutionary worth his bandana has it too. This info is being released for the benefit of me and you. Judge what you see.

  • Peter Mindham

    Member
    December 17, 2010 at 8:33 am

    Interesting to see Assange on Newsnight last night.
    Much whinging about "leaked" info from the swedish government and lawyers about him.

    Seems whats good for the goose isnt necessarily good for the gander.

    Couldn’t seem to answer any questions directly either. Wasn’t impressed with him at all i’m afraid. That showing may well hurt him more than help him.

    Peter

  • Harry Cleary

    Member
    December 17, 2010 at 10:09 am

    Didn’t see it Peter…not really that important what happens to Assange…there are many within Wikileaks who would have a similar opinion to yours. Important thing is that Wikileaks is a community and that it survives.

    It’s a battle to preserve the freedom of the internet. Critical that it is won!

    Again this morning it has demonstrated what a lying bunch of self serving b******S our ruling party are.

  • Ben Childs

    Member
    December 17, 2010 at 10:34 am

    Fair points Harry.

    I just don’t see that any good will come of it. Assange is already arrested on a charge that is probably a smokescreen whilst some Gov’t clevercogs work out how to charge him for Wikileaks.

    On a wider scale its caused tension between world Gov’t’s and powermongers which could make future diplomacy a lot harder. I think we all know they do things for their own agenda rather than the country/people they represent, but that’s not to say its always going to conflict with our interests too. However I do agree with the sentiment that freedom of internet needs to remain. Unfortunately I think Wikileaks will only contribute to a more controlled police state in the future, its going to take something more radical that Wikileaks to make a difference.

  • Peter Mindham

    Member
    December 17, 2010 at 3:46 pm

    Problem is as with any society where freedom of rights exists, there will always be people who are happy to break the rules for everybody else’s benefit. I don’t need that however, I can do that for myself. As is usual, the minority ( in this case wikileaks) will create problems which the rest of us will have to deal with.
    Freedom of speech and freedom to view government information MIGHT be a right Harry, but it comes with a responsibility to use that right for the betterment and safety of all. I just don’t see how wikileaks is a responsible internet citizen judging its present actions.

    Peter

  • Bill McMurtry

    Member
    December 17, 2010 at 10:25 pm
    quote Peter:

    Freedom of speech and freedom to view government information MIGHT be a right Harry, but it comes with a responsibility to use that right for the betterment and safety of all…

    Conditional freedom of speech is not freedom of speech. In China for eg people have freedom of speech as long as they don’t speak against authority. The "betterment and safety for all" can’t be a condition of free speech, even though it might sometimes be a result of it.

  • Harry Cleary

    Member
    December 17, 2010 at 11:02 pm
    quote Bill McMurtry:

    Conditional freedom of speech is not freedom of speech.

    I think that’s the nub of it. You may say ‘Who does Assange think he is’ but if I was being bombed or exploited or corporately robbed, I would be asking ‘who do they think they are!’ 😀

  • Peter Mindham

    Member
    December 18, 2010 at 9:59 am

    Agreed. But do you not think that any responsible thinking individual would perhaps be a little reticent to potentially endanger himself and others exercising his or her right to freedom of speech? It just doesn’t make sense to me that’s all.

    This will go on for a long time and I think the conclusion, if it ever comes, will be worse for society, not better.

    Peter

  • Harry Cleary

    Member
    December 18, 2010 at 10:22 am

    As far as I know Peter, the documents are passed to a number of newspapers first and every effort is made to make sure that life threatening info is removed.
    I think characterising this as irresponsible is wrong.

    As I have said already, from an Irish perspective these releases have been a good thing (depending which side of the fence you are on, of course!…lol)
    First it was revealed how mercenary and evil the Vatican have ‘actually’ been in covering up years of child abuse here.

    It has also revealed that our Government colluded with the US in allowing extraordinary rendition flights to touch down at Shannon airport while they consistently denied this to the Irish public. To me, that endangered our country in a very physical way and could well be looked at as treason of sorts.

    I think we have seen a change in the moral compass of the super powers in the modern age and Wikileaks run properly is a mighty attempt to restore some semblance of democracy and dare I say it (very unfashionable) ethical behaviour by our ‘elected’ representatives. It’s all too easy for them to hide non-mandated immoral behaviour behind the cloak of secrecy.

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